The Second World War.

[Reclaimedwg]

Originally Posted by Helenic

The Nazis WERE part of the German state, so I am not sure what you mean.

Not everyone who wore an uniform in the Nazi German armed forces (Air Force, Army, Navy) was a Nazi.

Many were just there because they had no choice, they were drafted.

Then there was the ones that were foreign nationals who were taken prisoners and either serve or go to a concentration camp or be executed on the spot.

[scoundrel]

Very many Germans and Austrians who fought on the Axis side in WW2 will have done so because they were fighting for their country and not necessarily for their political beliefs; just the same reason why many British and British Commonwealth, American and Russian servicemen fought in WW2. When your country is at war, you need to know whose side you are on. The penalties for serving alongside your country's enemies against your own country are likely to involve a slow and exquisitely painful death. Even conscientious objectors in the Third Reich were risking the death penalty and sometimes got it.

It is the ones who chose the particularly heinous "services" such as the Gestapo, guarding death camps, "police battalions" and so forth who merit only mericiless punishment. I saw in a newspaper this evening that President Trump personally authorised the arrest and possible extradition of a 95 year old man in the USA who is charged with having been a guard at Treblinka. The FBI had to wheel him away on his wheelchair, apparently; but if he is guilty of having been a guard at Treblinka, I would cheerfully hang him. People such as these should never feel safe, no matter how old they get. They chose it; they should suffer for this choice.

But people who chose only to fight for their country when their country was in a war have not done anything wrong IMHO. I would have volunteered to fight in WW2 had I been around then; as members of my family did at the time. I would look askance at anyone who evaded service without a good reason, such as being in a reserved occupation or not being medically fit; or having a legitimate conscientious objection and being willing to fulfill a dangerous role but just not willing to kill. Some ambulance people, bomb disposal people and similar were COs; but they also served and I have nothing to say against them.

[Ennath]

Originally Posted by Helenic

But GB invented concentration camps in the Boer War and killed through starvation and disease tens of thousands of civilians through 'neglect'. The people running those camps saw what they were doing and did it anyway.

Just nitpicking, but the Brits were beaten to it by a couple of years by the Spanish in Cuba.

[Ernesto75]

Originally Posted by wildtig2013

Not everyone who wore an uniform in the Nazi German armed forces (Air Force, Army, Navy) was a Nazi.

Many were just there because they had no choice, they were drafted.

Then there was the ones that were foreign nationals who were taken prisoners and either serve or go to a concentration camp or be executed on the spot.

Yes, that is true, but don't forget the German population, in his great majority, was enthusiastically pro-Hitler.
There is an explanation to that : the Germans felt humiliated after the Versailles treaty but that's not an excuse to what some of them did.

Even if we take into account the fact that some of them thought they had to do the nazi salute if they did not want problems, many were pro-Hitler and did so voluntarily.

The nazi part diminished along the wehrmacht losing battles.
While everything went along the German way, a great majority of Germans had been enthusiastically pro-Hitler.

[Rendell]

Originally Posted by Ernesto75

Yes, that is true, but don't forget the German population, in his great majority, was enthusiastically pro-Hitler.
There is an explanation to that : the Germans felt humiliated after the Versailles treaty but that's not an excuse to what some of them did.

Even if we take into account the fact that some of them thought they had to do the nazi salute if they did not want problems, many were pro-Hitler and did so voluntarily.

The nazi part diminished along the wehrmacht losing battles.
While everything went along the German way, a great majority of Germans had been enthusiastically pro-Hitler.

I certainly don't want to defend the Nazi regime or it's crimes but as I've gotten older, the idea that the German people were an abberation, that their crimes couldn't be repeated by other humans, just doesn't hold water IMHO.

I did see an interview the other day on the BBC news site between Stephen Sackur and an old man who was the son of Nazi war criminal which was particularly illuminating. The old man was reflecting on Germany as it is now and it's position as the leading economy in Europe and he said "Just give it a few years of economic hardship and see what effect that has on us. Don't trust us..."

Stephen was shocked by the man's candour, he rightly pointed out that Germany had made great strides since the end of the war to face up to it's responsibilities and was generally seen as a leading liberal democracy, Yet the old man was unconvinced.

I am reminded of a quote by John Wyndham: "It must be, I thought, one of the race's most persistent and comforting hallucinations to trust that "it can't happen here" -- that one's own time and place is beyond cataclysm."

I pray it can't happen here.

[Dr Pepper]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

Very many Germans and Austrians who fought on the Axis side in WW2 will have done so because they were fighting for their country and not necessarily for their political beliefs; just the same reason why many British and British Commonwealth, American and Russian servicemen fought in WW2. When your country is at war, you need to know whose side you are on. The penalties for serving alongside your country's enemies against your own country are likely to involve a slow and exquisitely painful death. Even conscientious objectors in the Third Reich were risking the death penalty and sometimes got it.

It is the ones who chose the particularly heinous "services" such as the Gestapo, guarding death camps, "police battalions" and so forth who merit only mericiless punishment. I saw in a newspaper this evening that President Trump personally authorised the arrest and possible extradition of a 95 year old man in the USA who is charged with having been a guard at Treblinka. The FBI had to wheel him away on his wheelchair, apparently; but if he is guilty of having been a guard at Treblinka, I would cheerfully hang him. People such as these should never feel safe, no matter how old they get. They chose it; they should suffer for this choice.

But people who chose only to fight for their country when their country was in a war have not done anything wrong IMHO. I would have volunteered to fight in WW2 had I been around then; as members of my family did at the time. I would look askance at anyone who evaded service without a good reason, such as being in a reserved occupation or not being medically fit; or having a legitimate conscientious objection and being willing to fulfill a dangerous role but just not willing to kill. Some ambulance people, bomb disposal people and similar were COs; but they also served and I have nothing to say against them.

I've mentioned this before-but it bears repeating-especially in light of scoundrel's post quoted here-the incident related here is mentioned by Maj Gen Sir Howard Kippenberger in his book 'Infantry Brigadier'-largely a history of the 2nd NZEF's experiences in the North African theatre in WW2. After the tide had generally turned in favour of the Allies, somewhere in theatre a group of kiwi soldiers were passing a group of fairly dejected looking Axis PoWs in 'the cage' and as kiwis are wont to do-gave the PoWs a bit of 'verbal'...and were dumbfounded when they were roundly abused back in fluent kiwi idiom vernacular by one of the PoWs. After a few more exchanges conversation was struck up and it turned out the PoW in question had been a German hairdresser living in Tauranga NZ-until with the clouds of war gathering, he answered his country's call.....

I wonder what his status would have been seen as-and whether the higher NZ command got to hear of it-(obviously they did eventually-otherwise it would not have appeared in the book...) and what said individual's fate might have been.....a lot would have depended on what passport he held......*

* most of us are aware of William Joyce, aka 'Lord Haw Haw'-executed after the war for treason-in more recent times with the release of embargoed classified documents-it has become apparent that very senior British figures in the judicial establishment had grave reservations regarding the legitimacy of his conviction and sentence-he was American born, an Irish national and a German citizen by wars end...

[Ernesto75]

Originally Posted by Rendell

I did see an interview the other day on the BBC news site between Stephen Sackur and an old man who was the son of Nazi war criminal which was particularly illuminating. The old man was reflecting on Germany as it is now and it's position as the leading economy in Europe and he said "Just give it a few years of economic hardship and see what effect that has on us. Don't trust us..."

I am reminded of a quote by John Wyndham: "It must be, I thought, one of the race's most persistent and comforting hallucinations to trust that "it can't happen here" -- that one's own time and place is beyond cataclysm."

Nowadays there is a tendency of showing the Roman defeat of Teutobourg forest like one of the reasons why the Germany is different from the rest of Europe. Naturally the ones leading this way of thinking are German scholars.

I do not totally agree with this way of thinking.

I just see it like a historic accident which can be compared to the Boadicea revolt in Roman occupied Brittany or the revolt in Gaul whose leader was Vercingetorix.

The only difference was that the Teutoburg forest incident was very well prepared and it succeeded.

Modern Germans are not like their parents because they want to forget the nazi period of their history. This part is pushed away like dust under a carpet.

And they are successful; but we must not forget what was done by their elders. Forgive yes, forget no.

The same applies to the Japanese and what was done by this great people during the same period.
There are many Japanese that do not know what was done.
I think they are sincere, a bit like the Russians who think the stories about the Stalin period are an invention.

Almost every people have bad things they prefer to forget; that's human.

[GraemeAU50]

At one of the old venues I worked at we had a group of WW2 veterans who shared some stories about treatment of POW's and civilians from both sides of the fence and certainly nobody came out of it squeaky clean

Let's not forget some Nazi's were welcomed with open arms into other countries when it suited those countries in terms of making more progress with space travel, weapons, etc yet those with nothing of interest were outed and put on trial, etc

And even in times of 'peace' without wars there are a lot of human rights issues which are being ignored simply because of the strategic or economic worth of the countries involved

[Ernesto75]

Originally Posted by GraemeAU50

At one of the old venues I worked at we had a group of WW2 veterans who shared some stories about treatment of POW's and civilians from both sides of the fence and certainly nobody came out of it squeaky clean

Let's not forget some Nazi's were welcomed with open arms into other countries when it suited those countries in terms of making more progress with space travel, weapons, etc yet those with nothing of interest were outed and put on trial, etc

And even in times of 'peace' without wars there are a lot of human rights issues which are being ignored simply because of the strategic or economic worth of the countries involved

Yes, you are perfectly right.

One think immediately to the welcome which Von Braun and his friends received from the Americans.
Their moral part in the enslavement of thousands of workers was never seriously questioned.

And there are others in Great Britain, France and Russia who also were welcomed without moral questions being asked.
We simply do not know the details.

[Rendell]

Quite by chance, I came across this article today shared by a friend on FB:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/n...-war-5ms57flqj

Much of the information contained here was unknown to me and though I'm aware of Mosley and the Blackshirts etc, this paints a far more nuanced picture of Britons attitude to the Jews. It suggests that anti-semitism in Britain went deeper than simply a clique of reactionary aristocrats. The documents the article draws on were originally only to be released in 2021 but were obtained earlier by a specific request under the Freedom of Information act.