The First World War

[palo5]

Originally Posted by knobby109

...if you have armament capable of accuracy at 26 000 yards why not use it?

In all history there have only ever been few freak hits at that range. Like two and that's all?

[knobby109]

Originally Posted by deepsepia

. . . right you are.

On that note, its interesting to see how a historical event "ages out" of popular culture.

WW I remained contemporary in the British Empire and France much longer than it did in the US and Germany. WW I is "The Great War" in Britain, whereas WW II is "The Big One" in the US.

Its mostly the scale of the casualties. Walk around a small farm town in Wales, in New Zealand, in Australia, and you'll inevitably find a monument to the dead, with an improbably long list of names . . . on more than one occasion I've found myself looking around at a tiny village of just a few houses, and trying to figure out where the twenty young men could have come from.

There are a handful of towns and villages which lost none of their men in WW1 and these were dubbed "Thankful Villages" by Arthur Mee in the 1920s.A very few of these went on to lose nobody in WW2 either.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thankful_Villages

[george anson]

Originally Posted by haroldeye

Jellicoe achieved his objective. The High Seas Fleet in port in no mood to come out again. He would have preferred to have sunk the lot but the fact was that the Grand Fleet were still in control of the battleground and were ready for more.

It is often missed that Jellicoe put his fleet in the perfect position. One minute Scheer was steaming North to finish off Beatty and his battlecruisers and the next he was coming to terms with a horizon lit by the fire of the Grand Fleet. The only thing that saved Scheer was superb training and the excellent build quality of his ships.

Palo couldn't agree more about Beatty.

From a naval point of view I prefer WW2 in that it had more 'fun' from a wargaming point of view and strategic/tactical interest.

Somehow vessels from the Great War never captured my interest as much as those of WW2.

Nonetheless I do remember reading AJP Taylor's books as a child and remember one striking image (a drowned mother holding her baby in the wake of the sinking of the Lusitania) and one striking phrase 'gefechtskehrwendung' as performed by the High Seas Fleet at Jutland.

The HSF were in much the same position as their sucessors in WW2. Hemmed in geographically and in an inferior position in terms of numbers and ship types compared to the RN.

No matter how fast they built the RN outbuilt them and outgunned them and also requsitioned ships being built for Chile, Brazil ie HMS Agincourt and Turkey (possibly tipping the balance for the Ottomans to join the Axis).

None of the designs like the Mackensen's ever materialized and even ships like the Bayern and Baden followed in the wake of the QE fast battleships.

And because of the implications of Versailles some of their design flaws ended up in the next class of battleships buily by Germany the Bismarck's.

There was even an action in the South Atlantic as well where the folly of the armoured cruiser was exposed but not learnt from (as seen at Jutland) and a brave Admiral Craddock fought to the last but is not remembered trying to close the range as Harwood would later try and do with the Graf Spee.

And like the Bismarck episode the RN sought swift vengeance exacting it and in turn highlighting the folly of the Imperial Navy for building armoured cruisers.

As in WW2 the Imperial Navy remained a fleet in being aside from some skulking raids on convoys to Norway and the east coast of England always with a real fear of being caught and preferred to rely on the submarine and commerce raiders.

Indeed though the term submarine could be barely applied to these vessels (more surface ships capable of diving to a shallow depth for short periods of time) compared to their current descendants the war saw the evolution of the submarine as a genuine weapon of war and final sucessor as the capital ship.

Strangely enough the lessons so bitterly learnt by the merchant marine resulting in the convoy system were forgotten by the time WW2 came about.

The war on land had seen the rise of the plane as a weapon leading to the idea of planes being carried at sea as scouts to measure the strength of the opposition as with the fast cruisers and battlecruisers but with greater range.

By the time of Jutland the RN had two seaplane carriers in Campania and Engadine after Charles Samson had demonstrated the idea of flying off a ship in 1912.

And other nations who were to become significant advocates of carrier borne aerial power had their own seaplane carriers namely the USN and IJN.

In essence WW1 led to the development of the capital ship types that would lead to the death of the battleship.

As for the flu epidemic you've all seen how certain viruses can jump and mutate and acquire infectivity in humans when animals and man are in close contact.

The huge marshalling yards of the Western Front were also home to huge animal pens. After all an army marches on it's stomach. Recent analysis suggests the very source of the strain of Spanish flu originated in these places.

What is very sad is the loss of life. There are several war memorials dotted around Watford. Some have the same surnames in triplicate. Whole families died out and with them through the ages march the ghosts of descendants destined never to be born numbering in the millions.

Our own school memorial book all wonderfully illuminated and written in flowing Gothic script holds some three hundred names of masters and pupils killed in that awful slaughter.

And when it comes down to it those men would have been friends in another time and place as one saw in certain places along the Western front.

Unparallelled horror that many thought ,wrongly as it turned out ,would not be repeated again. In the long run both wars bled Europe dry.

[rotobott]

Originally Posted by knobby109

There are a handful of towns and villages which lost none of their men in WW1 and these were dubbed "Thankful Villages" by Arthur Mee in the 1920s.A very few of these went on to lose nobody in WW2 either.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thankful_Villages

Then there were the pals regiments, formed from one local area, like the Accrington pals from near where I live.

720 took part in the battle for Serre, within a couple of hours 584 were killed, wounded or missing.

[haroldeye]

I live in the North East and the war memorials are heartbreaking. My own village had a population of 1500 souls in 1914, and there are nearly forty names on the war memorial. Given the number of families this represents a goodly proportion of the young men of the village.

[squigg58]

In 1914, the Royal Navy maintained a patrol of old Cressy-class armoured cruisers in the area of the North Sea known as the "Broad Fourteens" (so called because the large area off the Dutch coast is a fairly consistent fourteen fathoms deep). There was opposition to the patrols as the cruisers were obsolete (launched in 1899-1901), poorly maintained (no money was being wasted on them!) and crewed by inexperienced reservists. As such, The Seventh Cruiser Squadron, or Cruiser Force C, was often referred to as "The Live Bait Squadron".


HMS Hogue

On the 20th September 1914, the cruisers HMS Euryalus, HMS Aboukir, HMS Hogue and HMS Cressy were preparing to go on patrol under Rear Admiral Christian in Euryalus. Normally the patrol was under command of Rear Admiral Campbell in HMS Bacchantes but he was absent so Christian took his place. However, Euryalus then had to drop out due to lack of coal and weather damage to her wireless, and Christian had to remain with his ship as the weather was too bad to transfer. He therefore delegated command to Captain Drummond in Aboukir.

Early on the 22nd, the German submarine U9 under the command of Commander Otto Weddigen sighted the Cressy, Aboukir and Hogue steaming at 10 knots without zigzagging. Although the patrols were supposed to maintain 12-13 knots and zigzag, the old cruisers were unable to maintain that speed and the zigzagging order was widely ignored as there had been no submarines sighted in the area during the war.



U-9 and her commander, Otto Weddigen

U9 manoeuvred to attack and fired a single torpedo at Aboukir which rapidly flooded and began to sink. Captain Drummond ordered her to be abandoned, and having assumed that Aboukir had hit a mine, signalled the other two cruisers to close and assist. U9 then fired two torpedoes at HMS Hogue which had stopped to rescue the crew of Aboukir, even although it was then realised that Aboukir had been attacked by a submarine. Hogue sank within ten minutes. The third cruiser, Cressy, under Captain Johnson, had also stopped to lower boats but got underway on sighting a periscope. However U9 fired two torpedoes, one of which just missed but the other hit Cressy on her starboard side. Turning round, U9 then fired her last torpedo. Cressy went down within fifteen minutes.

As a result of the rapid sinking of all three ships, around 1,400 seamen lost their lives (reports vary between 1,397 and 1,459).

At the subsequent court of inquiry, Drummond, Christian and Campbell were all criticised, but the bulk of the blame was directed at the Admiralty for persisting with a patrol that was dangerous and of limited value against the advice of senior sea going officers.

As a poststcript to the incident, it is claimed that a 15 year old midshipman, Wenman "Kit" Wykeham-Musgrave, who was aboard the Aboukir, swam to the Hogue when his own boat went down. However, he was just scrambling aboard the Hogue when she too was torpedoed, so he dived back into the water and swam to the Cressy. When she was then torpedoed, Wykeham-Musgrave found himself back in the water. He then clung to a piece of wood until he was eventually rescued by a Dutch trawler.

[Ennath]

March 20, 1914
Britain Officers at the Curragh military base in Ireland submit their resignations rather than obey orders to force the loyal population of Ulster to accept Home Rule under the separatists of southern Ireland. This “Curragh Mutiny” shakes the British army, but all the officers are later reinstated under the stress of war.

March 20, 1915
Western Front The 1st Battle of Champagne ends. The French have gained less than a mile. Since late December, both sides have lost about 90,000 men here. The operation clearly demonstrates that “rapid and energetic action” is no substitute for improved doctrine and weapons, especially artillery.
Eastern Front A Russian attack near Smolnik takes some 2400 Austrian prisoners.
Southwest Africa A South African force under General Botha defeats a German force at Riet on the Swakop River.

March 20, 1916
Western Front, Verdun To secure any position at Le Mort Homme, the Germans must capture a similar ridge to the west called Hill 304, from which French machine gun fire can hit troops on their right flank. Forearmed with information about the defense on Hill 304 provided by French deserters, the Germans capture a position at the ridge’s base, but they thereby only expose themselves to still more machine gun fire. The Germans attack into Avocourt Wood.
North Sea There is an inconclusive clash between 4 British and 3 German torpedo boats.
Eastern Front The Lake Naroch offensive continues with small Russian gains at high cost. During the night, the temperature drops to 13 degrees Fahrenheit, ending the thaw.

March 20, 1917
Western Front The French complete the clearance of the Department of the Oise. They take Tergnier and cross the St. Quentin Canal.
Franc eThe 75-year old Alexandre Ribot becomes Premier. Paul Painlevé, who does not think highly of Nivelle, becomes Minister of War; unlike his predecessors, he is determined that if he is to accept responsibility for the conduct of the war, then he must be fully informed of all plans. Shortly after assuming office, he meets with Nivelle and assumes that the German withdrawal from their salient will render Nivelle’s offensive redundant. He also advises the general that since assuming office, he has heard complete details of the plan bruited about Paris; even the date of the attack is well known. Secrecy has obviously been hopelessly compromised. Nivelle assures the minister of success and that only small details of the plan have needed to be changed. The objective is now a clean breakthrough.
Russia Responding to pressure from the Petrograd Soviet, the Provisional Government places the tsar and his family under arrest at Tsarskoe Selo, intending to allow him to leave some time later for asylum in England. Nicholas reviews troops and urges loyalty to the new government. The Provisional Government announces that it cannot assume neutrality because the prospects of peace in Europe are non-existant.
United States Ex-president Theodore Roosevelt in New York issues a statement calling for war with Germany. At a meeting of all the members of his cabinet, the president requests advice on whether to call a special meeting of Congress before April 16 and what exactly to ask of the convened Congress. The cabinet members unanimously support calling an earlier special session and asking for a declaration of war. During the night, the president decides his cabinet is right.

March 20, 1918
Western Front There are large German raids in Champagne, near Verdun, in the Woevre, and in Lorraine.
English Channel A German force of 9 destroyers and 6 torpedo boats raids the Dover Barrage and is engaged by a mixed British and French flotilla. Two German torpedo boats are sunk.
United States Dutch shipping in American ports is seized.

March 20, 1921
Germany A plebiscite is held in Silesia. A majority vote for continued inclusion in Germany.

March 20, 1922
Germany The last US occupation troops leave the country.

[palo5]

Originally Posted by Ennath

March 20, 1916
Western Front, Verdun

It's said the Germans lost a golden opportunity at Verdun, and could have won. Apparently, there was only one supply road to the place, but for some reason - which if we are objective can be called incompetence - the Germans didn't know. It is not clear to me why they didn't have this intelligence, because they had plenty of aircraft, and plenty of guns to keep the road destroyed

The same happened in WW2, but with reversed roles. The Germans only had three roads for their main invasion force of France, but somehow Western brains did not think to bomb these routes effectively, or even to look for them

[deepsepia]

Originally Posted by palo5

The same happened in WW2, but with reversed roles. The Germans only had three roads for their main invasion force of France, but somehow Western brains did not think to bomb these routes effectively, or even to look for them

In the case of "la voie sacree" -- the road from Bar le Duc to Verdun, the French had 8500 men working continuously to repair it, and moved a great deal of material at night. Much of the road was beyond the range of German artillery. Continuous barrage of the parts nearer German lines would have been difficult -- WW I was an artillerists' war, and counter-battery fire was extremely good.

In WW II, the allied air commanders had a strong ideological preference for strategic bombing, and clearly under-resourced tactical interdiction. There's a lot of evidence that fighter-bombers attacking road and rail lines were vastly more effective than B-17s dropping bombs on cities, but this is a case where the theory of strategic bombing held sway.

[palo5]

Originally Posted by deepsepia

In the case of "la voie sacree" -- the road from Bar le Duc to Verdun, the French had 8500 men working continuously to repair it, and moved a great deal of material at night. Much of the road was beyond the range of German artillery

I know what you mean, but clearly the 40 cm Krupp guns could have been used for this purpose, and the rebuilding would have brought nothing