Questions For Our Russian Friends

[sobaka]

Originally Posted by bowlinggreen

I could see us having another civil war at some point and the country breaking up into sections a la the old USSR.

I think that in a lot of ways we are no longer the "United" States.

Unlikely, for all the divisions within in US the shared culture is still more homogeneous than the cultural hodge podge of the soviet union and the results of many years of suppression of those various cultures.

[sobaka]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

There are many rather basic conceptual errors in Marxist economic theory. All Marxist economies are up against the economic calculation problem: how do you allocate resources efficiently when the state owns the means of production, distribution and exchange? There is no longer a free market price. A free market price has a rationing function to discourage frivalous use of scarce resources and a signalling function, promoting rational decisions by consumers.

Marxism also values work by inputs rather than by results. Give Estreeter and Scoundrel the same ingredients, the same time and the same oven: Estreeter might well bake an excellent loaf of bread whereas Scoundrel produces a lump of charcoal. The same effort and the same materials did not result in the same value and so were not equally worthy of reward.

And unfortunately Marx also failed to really take account of the human element. People don't make rational choices and they do not always work to their own (let alone others best interest).

Secondly in order to maximize production socialism requires the centralization of decisions making (as well as the means of production). The problem here is that while in a true capitalist state (with competition) one error affects one company, a small number of consumers and workers and a smaller number of owners, whereas a wrong decision in a centralized economy affects just about everyone think about stuff like the Vega-2e refrigerator). And if the product is an input to something else the problem cascades.

The problem is that neither system communism or capitalism is stable. Communism becomes unworkable and breaks down due to frustration with its inefficiencies, capitalism reaches a state where some companies are so successful in competing that they achieve monopolies and assume control of governments to protect their monopolies, thereby abandoning capitalism.

[Nobody1]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

There are many rather basic conceptual errors in Marxist economic theory. All Marxist economies are up against the economic calculation problem: how do you allocate resources efficiently when the state owns the means of production, distribution and exchange? There is no longer a free market price. A free market price has a rationing function to discourage frivalous use of scarce resources and a signalling function, promoting rational decisions by consumers.

Marxism also values work by inputs rather than by results. Give Estreeter and Scoundrel the same ingredients, the same time and the same oven: Estreeter might well bake an excellent loaf of bread whereas Scoundrel produces a lump of charcoal. The same effort and the same materials did not result in the same value and so were not equally worthy of reward.

Well, let's see if I understand you correctly.

US citizens are turning to GoFundMe for their medical bills because the American health care system is in principle a prime example of Marxist mismanagement. And if it were only operated according to purely capitalist standards, then they would enjoy free market prices, an effective allocation of resources and results-oriented work, not evaluated according to input.

I learn something new every day.

[Arturo2nd]

I have gone on some very long rants about the moral bankruptcy of a society that allows educating the young and caring for the sick to be turned into wealth extraction for a few bastards who ought to be given slow and painful deaths instead.

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by Nobody1

Well, let's see if I understand you correctly.

US citizens are turning to GoFundMe for their medical bills because the American health care system is in principle a prime example of Marxist mismanagement. And if it were only operated according to purely capitalist standards, then they would enjoy free market prices, an effective allocation of resources and results-oriented work, not evaluated according to input.

I learn something new every day.

I never said other systems are problem-free. Also, regardless of systems, the outcome of how a society is governed will reflect the ethical values of the people being governed. Where people are ruthlessly selfish and profit-oriented and do not believe in the fair allocation of scarce resources on the basis of need, and capitalism is not properly regulated, there you are less likely to find a single-payer universal health service. Those who remain ethical and concerned with collective well-being rather than only themselves will be forced to contribute to save lives by making donations on GoFundMe because their taxes are paying for the CEO of a one ward hospital with 32 beds to fly around on his company helicopter.

[bowlinggreen]

Originally Posted by sobaka

Unlikely, for all the divisions within in US the shared culture is still more homogeneous than the cultural hodge podge of the soviet union and the results of many years of suppression of those various cultures.

Well, we almost broke up once before. The situation could arise again.

[Roubignol]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

There are many rather basic conceptual errors in Marxist economic theory. All Marxist economies are up against the economic calculation problem: how do you allocate resources efficiently when the state owns the means of production, distribution and exchange? There is no longer a free market price. A free market price has a rationing function to discourage frivalous use of scarce resources and a signalling function, promoting rational decisions by consumers.

I do not totally agree with you.
Marx explained, demonstrated and quoted other economists, that the prices given by the market are arbitrary and absolutely do not reflect the reality.

Today you can tell me what you want, but that's not normal that a liter of gasoline is cheaper than a liter of red wine. It's not normal to see the price of the gasoline that cheap. We burn important gasoline... to have fun.

Value of gold or silver are cultural, but not real.
When the conquistadors arrived in South America, Azteks and Mayas were surprised about the gold addiction of European invaders.
South American cultures were well developped without thinking that gold was a financial reference.

Why do we destroy environment for diamonds, or in stocking gold or silver, when we could perfectly live without them?
We destroy areas in extracting gold that we burry again in strong safes.
That's pure absurdities.

That's all these kind of absurdities that were revealed by Marx and today environmentalists.

I've to thank Brecht, deepsepia and a friend of mine thanks to debate, in pushing me to read Marx and anarchists after all these years, because 150 years ago Marx put on paper an analysis of our today problems far before that he had faced.
He faced social problems that we clearly see coming back but didn't face the environmental problems that are caused by the operation of Capitalism that push enterprises to make always more money to.... survive. But he was aware about environmental problems.

That's all the problem. Capitalism doesn't know how to create a virtuous circulation of money. Capitalism need to destroy the environment to survive. It's a real dramatic system in front of which people daily are confronted and stay paralized because they learned it was the only solution.

[rupertramjet]

Originally Posted by Nobody1

Well, let's see if I understand you correctly.

US citizens are turning to GoFundMe for their medical bills because the American health care system is in principle a prime example of Marxist mismanagement. And if it were only operated according to purely capitalist standards, then they would enjoy free market prices, an effective allocation of resources and results-oriented work, not evaluated according to input.

I learn something new every day.

I believe there was a recent US president, who tried to introduce a nationwide system of free health care for all, whereby no American need worry about being made homeless by the need for medical treatment, a system where the elderly would not need to fret and worry about finding the money to pay for medications deemed necessary by their doctor. I recall this man being ridiculed and attacked for doing what in my country we did seventy years ago!

This scheme would have provided medical care for the homeless, many of whom have served their country, put the expensive medical insurance companies and even more expensive care providers into a position that they had to provide care at a competitive price, and cost the US tax payer, via taxation, a damn site less than they currently pay for medical insurance. Strangely the people of the US did not want it! Strangely too, the people of Britain would kill anyone who tried to stop our own NHS!

The NHS has problems, huge problems, many caused by the illogical adoption of PFI, were private investors paid for infrastructure and new hospital projects, massively under the Blair/Brown dictatorship, and at the same time got the right to manage those projects for up to fifty years! The same by the way in education, police and local authorities, all of whom are now in deep shit! But talk about doing away with the NHS and you would face political suicide!

[Roubignol]

Originally Posted by rupertramjet

I spend much time laughing at the 80% approval rating claimed by the Putin! Is it not strange that our biggest music, TV, media and other stars would not rate that high a rating, yet millions love them, and yet many Russians are unable to see how odd this might appear in the West!

That leaders of any credible, and sometimes not so credible, opposition parties get arrested fo speaking out? Would be like Vince Cable or the bizarre Corbyn being locked up for arguing with the Government! What Russians do not seem to get, is that oppositions and opposition views are what forms a democracy, and of course they think we in the West are stupid, because we question what they accept, because we are allowed to!

I was used to watch NHL during 7 years and always was surprised to see that NHL Russian superstar hockey players, like Kovalchuk, Oveshkin, Datsuyk, etc... are proud to play for Russia, return to play to the KHL (the Russian league) or return to live in Russia, when they are retired, but they very rarely stay in Canada or USA.
Even the ex-USSR Olympic champions Slava Bykov or Khomuthov who played in Switzerland during the 90's returned to Russia. Bykov, who took the Swiss nationality but still is Russian, sometimes come back in Switzerland because his son was raised and decided to stay here.

If Russia would be a dictatorship and USA or Switzerland such marvelous countries, would these Russian hockey players come back in their homeland?

[rupertramjet]

Being a rich famous Russian is vastly different from being a poor one!