Weaponry; Discussion of Rights and Responsibilities

[Roubignol]

Originally Posted by Rogerbh

If you moved Switzerland into the same geographic place as the US, had our sets of minorities, even with your laws, our gangs and drug violence would give this "new" country the same level of violence that we have.

I sometimes believe that's only a question of political system. I believe in a strong state that can hit very hard, if people behave like assholes and can be very nice if people fairly behave... I strongly believe in education and a fair distribution of wealth between people.

But maybe I'm totally wrong and unfair behaviour is an essential characteristic of humanity.

I just finished this book Peacemaking among Primates. All the primates (rhesus monkeys, chimpanzees, bonobos, HUMANS , etc...) are incredibly... fighters. When we are together, it's almost like if we need to quarrel. We always have one who wants to be the leader, but it also seems that we need leaders and... we are jealous of leaders.
We feel resentment, jealousy, greed, envy....

What a strange and unpeaceful planet.

Originally Posted by Rogerbh

We lost Prohibition and we have lost the war on drugs - our ability to control gang violence is next to non-existent. Hell, we even have some brain dead politicians trying to pay gang bangers to not shoot people. How long before that backfires? http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/09/01...eep-peace.html

Maybe the solution would be that the state controls the drugs market like it controls the cigarettes and the alcohol market?

In Switzerland, if you are an heroin addict, the state can help you to give you your methadone dose.

[bowlinggreen]

After reading through various articles pertaining to the LV shooting, I am trying to figure out what the hell any legitimate use a "bump stock" could have. Except to waste a whole bunch of ammunition in a hurry because it "sounds cool".

I suspect these may go on the chopping block soon, as a political expedient for the Republicans if nothing else.

It seems to me that in a very real sense, military style guns have become a fashion statement in certain circles, and are often possessed by those who utterly lack the skills and discipline to serve as a valuable member of any citizen militia, which was the entire point of the second amendment.

[beemerider500]

I am reminded of the speech that Michael Rennie made at the end of the movie "The Day The Earth Stood Still".
"Either there is security for all, or no one is secure. This doesn't mean giving up any rights, except the right to act irresponsibly."

[otokonomidori]

Who'd shoot a cute f*cking kangaroo??? Did you eat it??

[Estreeter]

Originally Posted by otokonomidori

You shot a cute f*cking kangaroo??? Did you eat it??

If I said yes you wouldn't believe it
Healthiest red meat there is

Didn't even need a automatic, single shot rifle.

[Rogerbh]

Originally Posted by xyzde69

I sometimes believe that's only a question of political system. I believe in a strong state that can hit very hard, if people behave like assholes and can be very nice if people fairly behave... I strongly believe in education and a fair distribution of wealth between people.

A strong state that can hit very hard - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...rceration_rate The US leads all other countries in the incarceration of its populace. Since some minorities are over represented statistically, it is often called racist. I prefer to think of Richard Pryor's comment of "Thank God we got penitentiaries!" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7DhFhzkjcA

We have so many people in prison that we are having a hard time paying for the costs of such incarcerations. How would your country "hit very hard" and have a better outcome? I just think that most countries have not experienced the level of gangs and drugs that we have, thus our violence levels are incomprehensible to them. (I exclude poverty as a cause of violent crime in the US as some studies have shown high levels of poverty for certain races do not produce high levels of violent crime as compared to other races.)

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by Rogerbh

A strong state that can hit very hard - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...rceration_rate The US leads all other countries in the incarceration of its populace. Since some minorities are over represented statistically, it is often called racist. I prefer to think of Richard Pryor's comment of "Thank God we got penitentiaries!" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7DhFhzkjcA

We have so many people in prison that we are having a hard time paying for the costs of such incarcerations. How would your country "hit very hard" and have a better outcome? I just think that most countries have not experienced the level of gangs and drugs that we have, thus our violence levels are incomprehensible to them. (I exclude poverty as a cause of violent crime in the US as some studies have shown high levels of poverty for certain races do not produce high levels of violent crime as compared to other races.)

I think that because we do have a lot in common, Europeans (inc. British) and Americans can be taken by surprise when we encounter situations in which our culture and ethical values wildly disagree, Gun control is a piece of a larger jigsaw in which our views on the role of the State and of the rights and duties of the individual are not the same, and so our interpretation of the same facts and narrative will disagree. For example, many Americans will be solidly behind the NRA and Wayne LaPierre as the voice of freedom and individual rights, whereas I could watch Wayne LaPierre burning alive and screaming in agony and begging for help, and decline to piss on him, and the tears of joy would roll down my cheeks. This is because when he refused to even entertain a discussion on gun regulation after the Sandy Hook massacre he crossed a line for me; he is a public enemy, as is the NRA. But I have accepted that this is my British perspective and that many Americans see this another way, and even that if I had been born and raised in the USA I too might see it another way.

[Roubignol]

I would be interested to know that if the American people had the possibility to change the American Constitution like the Swiss people can through a referendum, would they delete this 2nd amendement or restrict its impact, like to remove the right to insane people to have the right to buy guns in a shop like a bottle of coca-cola, etc...

Originally Posted by Rogerbh

A strong state that can hit very hard - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...rceration_rate The US leads all other countries in the incarceration of its populace. Since some minorities are over represented statistically, it is often called racist. I prefer to think of Richard Pryor's comment of "Thank God we got penitentiaries!" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7DhFhzkjcA

I read that in the USA, incarceration became a good business with shareholders and money to make.
If it's true, don't hope that your leaders will try to solve the problems.

[BondJmsBond]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

I have accepted that this is my British perspective and that many Americans see this another way, and even that if I had been born and raised in the USA I too might see it another way.

Wise words. If I had been born and raised in England I may well feel the same as you.
As it is I feel terrified for you Brits with what you face, unarmed.

Originally Posted by xyzde69

to remove the right to insane people to have the right to buy guns in a shop like a bottle of coca-cola, etc...

Agreed, but you then face the privacy and personal rights of the mentally ill vs. the duty to protect the public. It's a very difficult question.

[bowlinggreen]

Originally Posted by otokonomidori

You shot a cute f*cking kangaroo??? Did you eat it??

Hey, those outback kangaroos can be dangerous:

Originally Posted by scoundrel

I think that because we do have a lot in common, Europeans (inc. British) and Americans can be taken by surprise when we encounter situations in which our culture and ethical values wildly disagree, Gun control is a piece of a larger jigsaw in which our views on the role of the State and of the rights and duties of the individual are not the same, and so our interpretation of the same facts and narrative will disagree. For example, many Americans will be solidly behind the NRA and Wayne LaPierre as the voice of freedom and individual rights, whereas I could watch Wayne LaPierre burning alive and screaming in agony and begging for help, and decline to piss on him, and the tears of joy would roll down my cheeks. This is because when he refused to even entertain a discussion on gun regulation after the Sandy Hook massacre he crossed a line for me; he is a public enemy, as is the NRA. But I have accepted that this is my British perspective and that many Americans see this another way, and even that if I had been born and raised in the USA I too might see it another way.

Truth. Many of us Americans, for example, cannot for the life of us understand why you still have a monarch, even only as a figurative head of state.