The Second World War.

[Mal Hombre]

More Swiss 109s

[Dr Pepper]

Originally Posted by Mal Hombre

More Swiss 109s

Damn-I'm very tempted to use that colour scheme on a (flying) scale model...I have several Me109 plans...in several model sizes....

[Dr Pepper]

Originally Posted by Dr Pepper

I believe on several occasions both Allied and Axis aircraft violating Swiss airspace were actually engaged and damaged -if not actually downed-by Swiss airforce fighters....the Swiss may be a fairly quiet lot generally-but they take their neutrality very seriously.....!

A bit of fact checking throws up:

(from wikipedia)


Nazi violations
Nazi Germany repeatedly violated Swiss airspace. During the Invasion of France, German aircraft violated Swiss airspace at least 197 times.[15] In several air incidents, the Swiss shot down 11 Luftwaffe planes between May 10, 1940 and June 17, 1940.[15] Germany protested diplomatically on June 5, 1940, and with a second note on June 19, 1940 which contained clear threats. Hitler was especially furious when he saw that German equipment was used to shoot down German pilots. He said they would respond "in another manner".[15] On June 20, 1940, the Swiss air force was ordered to stop intercepting planes violating Swiss airspace. Swiss fighters began instead to force intruding aircraft to land at Swiss airfields. Anti-aircraft units still operated. Later, Hitler and Hermann Göring sent saboteurs to destroy Swiss airfields. However, the saboteurs were captured by Swiss troops before they could cause any damage.[16] Skirmishes between German and Swiss troops took place in the northern border of Switzerland throughout the war.

Allied bombings and violations
See also: Bombings of Switzerland in World War II
From 1943 Switzerland stopped American and British aircraft, mainly bombers, overflying Switzerland during World War II: six times by Swiss air force fighters and nine by flak cannons, and 36 airmen were killed. On October 1, 1943 the first American bomber was shot near Bad Ragaz, with only three men surviving. The officers were interned in Davos and the airmen in Adelboden. The representative of the US military intelligence group based in Bern, Barnwell Legge (a US military attaché to Switzerland), instructed the soldiers not to flee but most of them thought it to be a diplomatic joke and gave no regard to his request.[17][18][19] Allied aircraft also intruded on Swiss airspace during the war, mostly damaged Allied bombers returning from raids over Italy and Germany whose crews preferred internment by the Swiss to becoming prisoners of war. Over a hundred Allied aircraft and their crews were interned. They were subsequently put up in various ski resorts that had been emptied from lack of tourists due to the war and held until it ended.[20] At least 940 American airmen attempted to escape into France after the invasion of Normandy, but Swiss authorities intercepted 183 internees. Over 160 of these airmen were incarcerated in a Swiss prison camp known as Wauwilermoos, which was located near Lucerne and commanded by André Béguin, a pro-Nazi Swiss officer. The American internees remained in Wauwilermoos until November 1944 when the U.S. State Department lodged protests against the Swiss government and eventually secured their release.[21] The American military attaché in Bern warned Marcel Pilet-Golaz, Swiss foreign minister in 1944, that "the mistreatment inflicted on US aviators could lead to 'navigation errors' during bombing raids over Germany."[22]

During the entire war, 6304 Allied aircraft violated Swiss airspace.[23][15]

Switzerland, surrounded by Axis-controlled territory, also suffered from Allied bombings during the war; most notably from the accidental bombing of Schaffhausen by American planes on April 1, 1944. It was mistaken for Ludwigshafen am Rhein, a German town 284 kilometres away. 40 people were killed and over 50 buildings destroyed, among them a group of small factories producing anti-aircraft shells, ball-bearings, and Bf-109 parts for Germany.[20][24][25][26]

The bombing limited much of the leniency the Swiss had shown toward Allied airspace violations. Eventually, the problem became so bad that they declared a zero-tolerance policy for violation by either Axis or Allied aircraft and authorized attacks on American aircraft.[27] Victims of these mistaken bombings were not limited to Swiss civilians, however, but included the often confused American aircrews, shot down by the Swiss fighters as well as several Swiss fighters shot down by American airmen. In February 1945, 18 civilians were killed by Allied bombs dropped over Stein am Rhein, Vals, and Rafz. Arguably the most notorious incident[28] came on March 4, 1945, when both Basel and Zurich were accidentally bombed by American aircraft. The attack on Basel's railway station led to the destruction of a passenger train, but no casualties were reported. However, a B-24 Liberator dropped its bomb load over Zürich, destroying two buildings and killing five civilians. The aircraft's crew believed that they were attacking Freiburg in Germany.[25] As John Helmreich points out, the pilot and navigator, in choosing a target of opportunity, "missed the marshalling yard they were aiming for, missed the city they were aiming for, and even missed the country they were aiming for".

The Swiss, although somewhat skeptical, reacted by treating these violations of their neutrality as "accidents". The United States was warned that single aircraft would be forced down, and their crews would still be allowed to seek refuge, while bomber formations in violation of airspace would be intercepted. While American politicians and diplomats tried to minimize the political damage caused by these incidents, others took a more hostile view. Some senior commanders argued that as Switzerland was "full of German sympathizers" (an unsubstantiated claim), it deserved to be bombed.[29] General Henry H. Arnold, Commanding General of the U.S. Army Air Forces, even suggested that it was the Germans themselves who were flying captured Allied planes over Switzerland in an attempt to gain a propaganda victory.[30]

[Mal Hombre]

Originally Posted by Dr Pepper

Damn-I'm very tempted to use that colour scheme on a (flying) scale model...I have several Me109 plans...in several model sizes....

Make a change from all the mottled grey ones with yellow noses..

[Historian]

Originally Posted by Rendell

thats the first time I've seen WW2 Swiss aircraft markings, very eye catching.

...quite important when you're flying BF109's.

Originally Posted by Mal Hombre

Make a change from all the mottled grey ones with yellow noses..

IIRC the red and white striped schemes were adopted late in the war in order to distinguish Swiss aircraft from German ones- as Rendell says, something that's fairly useful when both sides are flying Bf109s...

The Swiss had a fair number of Bf109s- 10 109Ds were bought in 1938, followed by a batch of 80 109Es, the 'Emils' being delivered between April '39 and the German invasion of France.

Over the course of the war, four further, ex-Luftwaffe, aircraft were added to the Swiss fleet having been interned after violating Swiss neutral airspace, and the Swiss had a large enough spares inventory from their pre-war orders to assemble a further 8 aircraft in 1944. A final order was made as late as the spring of 1944, when a dozen 109G-3s were purchased, and there's an interesting story behind these, which I'll come back to in a separate post.

Dr Pepper mentioned the Swiss shooting down 11 Luftwaffe aircraft in 1940- according to Wikipedia, these are the result of two significant clashes between Swiss and German aircraft at the beginning of June 1940- the Swiss getting the best of both encounters.

On 1st June, 36 Heinkel 111s of KG53 cut through Swiss airspace on their way to bomb the Lyon-Marseilles railway. The Swiss put up a dozen Bf109s to tackle them- six He111s being shot down for the loss of one Swiss pilot, Sub-Lt Rudolf Rickenbacher, killed by return fire from the Heinkels.

A week or so later, another formation of Heinkels escorted by Bf110s encroached into Swiss airspace, and was duly attacked by Swiss Bf109s (there had also been a separate incident earlier that day in which a Swiss observation aircraft was attacked and shot down by German fighters), with five 110s destroyed for the loss of a single 109. No wonder the Germans were pissed off- whoever signed off the deal to sell their neighbours over a hundred example of the Luftwaffe's main fighter can't have been very high on the Fuhrer's Christmas card list! The Swiss Air Force didn't just fly German kit- they also operated licence-built versions of the French Morane MS406 fighter, built in Switzerland by Doflug, a Swiss subsidiary of Dornier- about 300 of these saw service.

[Dr Pepper]

Originally Posted by Mal Hombre

Make a change from all the mottled grey ones with yellow noses..

They have some rather striking colour schemes: http://www.aviastar.org/air/switzerland/faf_c-3605.php

(I have a soft spot for this particular aircraft as it has ideal proportions for rubber power-where most scale models end up tail heavy-this one has a nice long nose which generally saves any need for ballast to get the CG right...)

Yes i know this version is post WW11-but it srarted life as a WWII aircraft-they just re-engined it...

[Historian]

The story of how, despite the German anger and diplomatic threats following Luftwaffe aircraft losses to Swiss Bf109s defending their neutral airspace in 1940, the Swiss came to acquire a further dozen aircraft from Germany as late as 1944 is interesting.

The story begins on 28th April 1944, when Luftwaffe nightfighter ace and CO of 8/NJG6, Wilhelm Johnen attacked an RAF bomber returning from a raid on Friedrichshafen. Wikipedia suggests it was a Halifax of 35 Sqn, although other sources confirm it was actually Lancaster ND759 'TL-R'- the source of the confusion may be that 35Sqn had just converted from Halifaxes to Lancasters a few weeks previously.

Johnen had hit and damaged the Lancaster, and it was forced to ditch in Lake Constance. One member of the crew drowned, while the rest were variously picked up by the Germans or interned by the Swiss. (The photo shows the damaged aircraft being retrieved from the lake before being scrapped after the war)



This was Johnen's 18th kill, but it was one which was about to complicate his life considerably. Return fire from the Lancaster's gunners had damaged his Bf110, and in the pursuit of the bomber, he'd crossed into neutral Swiss airspace; - with one engine overheating and losing power, Johnen was forced to land at the Swiss airfield at Dubendorf, where he and his crew were interned.



Not only had this incident handed the Swiss an intact Bf110 fitted with all the latest toys for the discerning nightfighter pilot; upward-firing 'Schrage-Musik' cannon, and Lichtenstein FuG202 and 220 radars; but Johnen's crew that night was a particularly unfortunate combination from the German point of view.

As Johnen's regular radar operator was on leave, Leutnant Joachim Kamproth had stood in- Kamproth was the squadron's signals officer and against all regulations had inadvertently taken up with him a copy of the latest radio signal codes. Furthermore, Johnen's gunner, Oberfeldwebel Paul Mahle, was a squadron armourer- who just happened to have built the prototype of the 'Schrage-Musik' cannon installation...

Needless to say, when Berlin discovered that this combination of personnel and kit had fallen into Swiss hands, (and were potentially accessible to Allied intelligence), the shit hit the fan. Hitler was notified, and family members of the crew were initially arrested by the Gestapo on suspicion that it may have been an act of deliberate treachery.

The mood wasn't helped when rumours spread that a 'Luftwaffe officer' in Zurich may have already inspected the aircraft- when he couldn't be identified, Goering suspected an Allied spy. Plans were hatched by Otto Skorzeny to carry out a commando raid to either destroy or recover the aircraft- there may even have been suggestions that assassins be despatched to Zurich to bump off Johnen and his colleagues in case they might talk...

SS foreign intelligence chief Walter Schellenberg realised that an open act of war against the Swiss probably wasn't the most realistic solution to the problem, and having a good working relationship with his opposite number on the Swiss side, instead cut a deal with them.

The Swiss authorities would release Johnen, Kamproth and Mahle, and either return or destroy the aircraft (by now, the Swiss had gone over it with a fine toothcomb anyway...), in return for which they would get a good deal on the purchase of a dozen Bf109G-3's.

A Hauptmann Brandt of the Luftwaffe was quickly sent to Zurich to supervise while Swiss army engineers blew the aircraft up- there was an initial panic when he realised that the radar antenna had been interfered with, but eventually he signed the agreement, witnessed the destruction of the aircraft and returned to Germany with the payment for the 109s.

Incidentally, the Swiss quickly discovered that the build quality of their shiny new 109s was awful, the aircraft were plagued with engine problems, and although they remained in service after the war, were withdrawn before some of the Swiss Air Force's older marks of 109 in 1949. Allegedly Messerschmitt and Daimler-Benz ended up having to refund a percentage of the purchase price in the 50's!

[crinolynne]

Originally Posted by Historian

A Hauptmann Brandt of the Luftwaffe was quickly sent to Zurich to supervise while Swiss army engineers blew the aircraft up- there was an initial panic when he realised that the radar antenna had been interfered with, but eventually he signed the agreement, witnessed the destruction of the aircraft and returned to Germany with the payment for the 109s.

And what did one of those lemons actually go for?

[scoundrel]

Switzerland had a small airforce but did not rely exclusively on German-built Messerscmitt Bf109s for air defence. Shortly before the war began, Switzerland acquired a license to build the Morane Saulnier MS-406. There were three factories in Switzerland capable of assembling one of these aeroplanes, none of them very large and all of them required for various other production and aircraft repair work. Between 1939 and 1942, 84 units of the MS-406 were manufactured in Switzerland - the Swiss variant was known as the D-3800.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMF3DpsJyNU

On paper it was not an impressive aeroplane. It had the Hispano-Suiza 12Y31 engine, a 12 cylinder in-line motor which generated 860 horsepower at maximum - not enough. The Morane Saulnier D-3800 had a maximum speed of 295mph and was also under-gunned. Like the French MS-406, it possessed a 20mm moteur-cannon firing through the propeller shaft and 2 7.5mm machine guns, one in each wing. The Swiss junked the French guns and added an Oerlikon to the cannon slot, and two belt-fed locally manufactured 7.5mm machine guns which were far less prone to freezing problems at high altitude than the drum-fed French guns they replaced. The build quality problems experienced by the French squadrons using the MS-406 were less apparent in Swiss service, possibly because the Swiss workforce was not so opposed to the "Capitalist-Imperialist War" and was more concerned than the French had been with the danger their country was facing.

Later, the Swiss obtained rights to the Hispano-Suiza 12Y51 engine, a similar engine but more powerful, generating up to 1,050 horses. This was used to make a new improved MS-406 called the D-3801 - 207 units were built by the end of the war. The D-3801 could achieve 332mph and also climbed faster. The armament remained unchanged.

I can't find any record of a Swiss Morane being involved in fighting intruders; all references seem to be to Switzerland's Bf109 inventory.

[scoundrel]

Apparently the Swiss paid CHF 6 million for the 12 Bf109Gs sold to them by Germany in 1944. Eventually they were reimbursed CHF 3 million in the 1950s to compensate for the inferiority in production quality of the 12 units delivered.