Holocaust:True Or False ?

[monogroover]

I wonder if racism really is a disorder, or just part of the human condition. To be clear I have nothing to say in favour of it. It has undoubtedly been a blight on human society. I find it revolting. But it is such a widespread phenomenon that I wonder if there's something in our DNA that causes a tendency toward it, perhaps something that's evolved as a defence mechanism, to encourage one set of genes to overcome another.

[haroldeye]

So the right, in particular the Nazis slaughtered because they thought the jews and slavs untermensch and the left slaughtered because men had different ideas. That's all right then.

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by haroldeye

So the right, in particular the Nazis slaughtered because they thought the jews and slavs untermensch and the left slaughtered because men had different ideas. That's all right then.

I don't think that's fair, Harold, no one was suggesting that either motive is justifiable. But it is useful to try to understand where the sickness comes from, as far as this can be done.

[Puhbear69]

Originally Posted by Attila The Hun

[...]

Hitler and his cronies were anti-Semites because Germany sadly had a history of anti-Semitism (not to blame all Germans), they were a clear and visible cultural-religious community and the NAZIs view Judaism and communism as linked due to Karl Marx (whose family had actually converted to Christianity but the NAZIs viewed Jews as a race) and other prominent leftists in Germany. The NAZI party pretty much came from the Nationalist ''freikorps'', whom the Weimar actually used to crush worker's revolts such as the Januaraufstand. The Freikorps were fiercely anti-Slavic and hated minorities. Himmler and many other prominent members of the NAZI party were members of Freikorps, however, Hitler (never a Freikorps member) came to view Freikorps as a threat and many Freikorps members were killed in 'The Night of The Long Knives'.

Other anti-Semitic and racist groups (the NAZIs were against others about as much, such as Slavs and Romani) that fed into the NAZI party were the occult groups such as Ariosphy and and the Völkisch nationalism of Johann Gottlieb Fichte, who spoke of purifying Germany. Völkisch Nationalists viewed Romani, Jews etc as too universal, which they hated. Fichte himself declared the Jews a state within a state and suggested the creation of a Jewish state in Palestine (popular with anti-Semites who didn't want to outright kill Jews... actually the idea was initially supported by NAZIs like Eichmann, who even made deals with Zionist groups) rather than having them in Germany.

All these different influences boiled over and created one of the most debased and vile forms of the disorder known as racism.

You are mixing up a couple of facts:
After the Contracts of Versailles of the German Empire Army had to be reduced from about 600.000 to 100.000 men (= regulars). That was not free of problems as you can imagine, because a lot of soldiers and officers did not do anything else as being soldiers and officers. Some got the corner to a private job, but the most did not. So they organised themselves to Freikorps (paramilitary units) and fought as mercenaries in different wars or uprisings.
Most soldiers and specially officers were on the far right. But not Nazis, they were loyal to the former Emperor. What's correct at your description, that a number of them were later Nazis as they had realized, there was no way back to the former Emperor. They were anti-communists, correct, what else on the far right.
At 'The Night of The Long Knives' the "Elite" of the Freicorps were killed, among the Julius Streicher and Ernst Röhm because they seemed not to be loyal to Hitler, seeing them as a threat to his power; correct too.

No, Jews were not clear visible as Jews (except maybe some orthodox at their long hair),
Over the centuries Jews converted to Christians and Christians converted to be Jews, so that race thing becomes a totally "bullshit". It hardly wouldn't work biologically (-incest) either over this long period of centuries.

You are right, that the Nazis have tried to find out that race thing, but that is trash as I have explained before.

[haroldeye]

I would suggest that it is not a sickness but an integral part of the beast that is within us all. Thankfully the major religions and today, humanism all preach in their mainstream form that mass murder and violence is wrong. They all try to make us into civilised animals capable of living together in peace and harmony. It is when malign influences breakdown the order of society and encourage the beast within us to act in our most primitive ways that such things as the holocaust happen.

[rustler]

I may be wrong here, so please correct me if I am so.....but,


Jews were outlawed in England during the reign of King John? Maybe it was Richard, but I believe they were outlawed around that time. Remember the (fictional) story of Ivanhoe, and the Jew's daughter Rebecca?

Oliver Cromwell was unusual, as he had a Jewish doctor. He interceeded with the Doge of Venice on behalf of Jews there as a result. Jews were forced to wear a yellow hat as a sign of their faith, which Cromwell managed to get stopped, at least for certain individuals.

Hatred of Jews in Germany, goes way back beyond Hitler and the Nazi's. They were simply a convenient scapegoat, IMHO. They were blamed for everything, and Hitler simply took up on a theme that he knew would gain him popularity.
Though Traudel Junge, Hitlers secretary, did say that the mere mention of the word Jew would rouse him into a frenzy.

[Mal Hombre]

Cromwell invited the Jews back into England because He thought Their business connections and contacts would be a valuable source of intelligence.Also He had a mystical idea that the return and conversion of the Jews would hasten the Second Coming.
Anti Semitism was the natural result of 2000 years of Christianity and Medieval rulers seeking to avoid paying debts to Jewish moneylenders.

[haroldeye]

The key thing Mal was that the Catholic church forbade usury so the moneylenders in medieval Europe were the Jews. If you're up to your neck in debt call a quick pogram and have the people to whom you owe money murdered.

[Nobody1]

Originally Posted by haroldeye

If you're up to your neck in debt call a quick pogram and have the people to whom you owe money murdered.

Actually, this principle applies to this day.

[Brecht]

Originally Posted by Nobody1

That was a clean analysis Norbert, compliment. However, I must add that the roots of German anti-Semitism actually date back to the days of the Reformation. Martin Luther and other reformers took a decidedly anti-Jewish attitude during this revolutionary era. As a consequence, anti-Semitism became an integral part of the evolving Protestant Ethic. The Protestant Ethic in turn determines the true nature of capitalism to this day.

In this sense, a certain quote of Bert Brecht is to understand.

'The womb he crawled from is still going strong.' (from 'The Resistible Rise of Arturo Ui' by Bertolt Brecht, 1941)

Of course but I doubt Luther's Christian anti-Semitism played a central part among the masses in the 19th century. Other reformers, whose teachings spread all over Northwestern Europe, held similar views. But the countries where their teachings spread with success were already changing. Belgium and the Netherlands emerged as the centers of capitalism. The transition from the old medieval order required a new ideological superstructure. Christianity was modified and adapted to these new economic and thus political circumstances. Capitalism has put this "Protestant Ethic" (or even invented it) in its service and not vice versa. Protestantism spread all over Germany but there was no "Protestant Ethic" like in the Ango-Saxon world because it reflected Germany's economic, political and social backwardness.

That is not to say anti-Semitism did not exist in Western Europe and America. Prior to discovering their love for Israel, the Christian Right in America used to be anti-Semitic. It still is in a less obvious way. I agree with your point about the religious influence on anti-Semitism but the ideas leading to the Shoa emerged in the 19th century because this was the era of modern racism which again was invented to serve the imperialist appetites of European powers.