Current Politics in the United Kingdom

[Wendigo]

Originally Posted by ********

That's one of the best possible outcomes, second only to cancelling the whole shitshow.

Only in your tortured imagination

[Mal Hombre]

Not just His,Nobody has yet come close to convincing Me that leaving the EU is a good idea.

[Wendigo]

Originally Posted by Mal Hombre

Not just His,Nobody has yet come close to convincing Me that leaving the EU is a good idea.

mj is a 100% pure pessimistic prophet of doom though so nothing he says is of any real worth to me.

By the same token nobody has yet come close to convincing me that successive HMG's taking us deeper into the EU morass was a good idea either. We had no choice at all in that matter.

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by Mal Hombre

Not just His,Nobody has yet come close to convincing Me that leaving the EU is a good idea.

Perhaps the shoe should be on the other foot, Mal; especially sine we have had a referendum and the people have spoken. No one has yet advance to me a credible case for why we should vote Remain. The Remain argument is like brats in a supermarket screaming and creating and it is all "I want! I want!". What is the positive argument why being in the EU is beneficial for ordinary folk in Great Britain? What are the reasons why I would want to be part of the EU?

When all I hear is how dreadful the world will be if we leave, and this is the only reason why we should vote against Leaving, I am reminded of Hillaire Belloc.
His Mother, as She dried her eyes,
Said, “Well—it gives me no surprise,
He would not do as he was told!”
His Father, who was self-controlled,
Bade all the children round attend
To James' miserable end,
And always keep a-hold of Nurse
For fear of finding something worse.

This should be the motto of Project Fear.

[Mal Hombre]

So,You've no sensible arguments for leaving,Then ? Only abuse ? I should have known better,Brexiteers too busy crowing to offer any sensible answers..

[palo5]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

What is the positive argument why being in the EU is beneficial for ordinary folk in Great Britain? What are the reasons why I would want to be part of the EU?

Since you're a money-person, you will understand these reasons:

• greater competition in services - which is good for businesses and consumers.
• removal of trade barriers.
• reduction of business costs.
• greater business efficiency.
• elimination of anti-competitive practices - such as monopolies and cartels

All of these mean better conditions for "ordinary folk"

To that you can add
1) It gives you freedom to live, work and retire anywhere in Europe
2) It sustains millions of jobs, and attracts foreign direct investment. Foreign companies see UK as a door to the EU
3) Your vacation is much easier. In case you didn't know, Britons vacation in Europe more than anywhere else
4) You're less likely to get ripped off. Consumer protection is a key benefit of the EU's single marked, and safe food belongs to it. Did you enjoy roaming charges, btw?
5) British businesses depend on it
6) Britain has greater influence. Face up to it: UK will never again be a dominant global or even regional nation. The EU changes that picture completely

Of course, "ordinary folk" may not know this because they're not told about it. The most many of them hear are outright lies about the EU from your wretched offshore or foreign-owned media. But all of them benefit from membership, without a shadow of doubt. Remember what you were before joining: the "sick man of Europe". Membership allowed you to change that, nothing else

I must add this personal comment. When people talk about "sovereignty" they often have no notion of what it means in the 21. century. The world is now inter-locked in ways it never was before. Trying to turn the clock back may sound good to ultra-nationalists who believe every piece of national propaganda they've ever heard, and who possibly hate foreigners as well. But ultra-nationalists are not the best people to follow, especially when they're as shallow as yours, imho

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by Mal Hombre

So,You've no sensible arguments for leaving,Then ? Only abuse ? I should have known better,Brexiteers too busy crowing to offer any sensible answers..

I do have sensible arguments for Leave and it is not as if I have been keeping them secret. But I will of course reprise them.

1. Sovereignty. Not being on the journey towards a European superstate. In order to be democratic, government must be accountable to the people; and the EU simply isn't. I remember the staggering arrogance of Antony Linton Blair when he argued that the British people were not to be trusted with the right to vote.

   "He [i.e. David Cameron] knows exit will define his legacy. And, following the Scottish referendum, he knows the perilous fragility of public support for the sensible choice.”~ Tony Blair 6 April 2015.

   In other words, Blair knows better than the British people and his opinion should take precedence over theirs. This is such a recurrent theme of the political elite; leaving the EU breaks their stranglehold over our democratic process and make our voting rights worth having again.
2. Control over social and economic policy.
3. Control over our own agriculture and fishing grounds..
4. Deciding for ourselves on health, safety and environmental regulation. In this way any failures and shortcomings, betrayals and corruption are our own fault.
5. Telling the EU that they can so fuck off on the free movement of labour it is just unreal.
6. Spending our own money on our own needs.
7. Maintaining our identity, not to be subsumed within someone else's vision of a greater Europe. If Europe is the sum of its peoples and its cultures, then all member states should have full democracy restored to them and be granted the right of self-determination which the EU has stolen from all individual member countries. All of the member countries have distinctive identities and cultures and it is right and proper that they should want to preserve them.
8. Having a strategic long term direction which respects the wishes and interests of ordinary people and does not as a matter of policy seek to make them work harder for less money year on year by importing cheap labour and skewing the labour market.

Perhaps now that I have answered your criticism, you can consider expressing the positive reasons why I should want my country of birth and domicile to belong to the EU? I think this is a reasonable request, don't you?

[jacques22]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

Both sides in the referendum lied shamelessly and based their campaigns on deceit and deflection.

Please, don't put the Leave and Remain campaigns on the same level.
In a democracy, the result of the referendum should be cancelled because the Leave campaign broke the electoral law by breaching the spending limit and coordinating illegally with another group (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44856992).
Also, there's an angoing investigation about a collusion between the Leave campaign and Russia. Arron Banks and other businessmen who financed the Leave campaign have had multiple meetings with Russian officials besides having lucrative investments in Russia (https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...ny-as-11-times). If you are so proud of British sovereignty and taking back control, then you should be very upset about Russian interference in the Brexit referendum.

Originally Posted by seany65

A UK that has basically been 'silenced' and so not allowed to oppose anything the EU says or does while still being in it and paying into it,

Exactly WHAT would the EU ever want to "negotiate"? As far as they are concerned giving us any deal would undermine what for them would the best scenario possible.

That persecution complex is becoming a tired meme. The problem with May is that she wants to have the freedom of the Canada deal and most of the benefits of the Norway or Switzerland deal. It's called having cake and eating it.
If the Cabinet want the benefits of the Norway or Switzerland deal, they must also accept the constraints and responsibilities (annual payments to the EU budget, freedom of movement, and accepting most of the EU laws).
And if the Cabinet want the freedom of the Canada deal, then they can only have a free trade deal with no access to the single market.
Since the very beginning, May has been making unrealistic demands. The UK has been part of the Single Market since its inception in 1993. British politicians have therefore seen what the EU was willing to give to Norway and the EEA in 1994 and how the EU compromised with Switzerland for a bespoke deal in 1999 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switze...nion_relations). Having been part of the Single Market for 25 years, British politicians know perfectly how it works and what the EU can accept. Giving the UK a better deal than Norway or Switzerland has always been a non-starter.

Originally Posted by scoundrel

No one has yet advance to me a credible case for why we should vote Remain. The Remain argument is like brats in a supermarket screaming and creating and it is all "I want! I want!". What is the positive argument why being in the EU is beneficial for ordinary folk in Great Britain? What are the reasons why I would want to be part of the EU?

The economy is one obvious reason for wanting to stay in the EU.
If you look at statistics from the World Bank, the UK was a poor country before joining the EEC. In 1972, the UK had a GDP per capita of $3,030 compared to $3,857 for France (the UK only accounted for 78.6% of the French economy). Fast forward. In 2015, the UK had a GDP per capita of $44,305 compared to $36,526 for France (the UK accounted for 121.3% of the French economy). Over a 43-year period, the UK economy has grown at a much faster rate than the French economy because of the economic benefits of EU membership.

You may ask: if EU membership is so beneficial, why the British people voted for Brexit? Here's my explanation: for decades, British politicians have blamed Brussels and Europe for their own failures. So you end up with a false dichotomy, with the positive image of a UK prospering on the one hand and the negative image of an EU responsible for all the British problems on the other. Manipulative politicians like Farage, Johnson and Rees-Mogg stirred nationalism and played with the jingoistic nostalgia for a British golden era (Make Britain Great Again).

Economic prosperity is not the only benefit of EU membership. The EU also has dozens of agencies, that help diminish costs for member states by pooling resources. Let's assume the UK doesn't have great scientists in a specific field. Being part of an agency will make up for that shortage while providing the services that the UK needs. For instance, British cancer patients can get radiotherapy treatments because the UK is a Euratom member. If the UK leaves the EU, it will have to spend more on its own agencies while getting weaker results than EU agencies.

The EU also helps reduce inequalities between regions by having projects targeting poor areas. For instance, British farmers get £3 billion a year from the Common Agricultural Policy. Here's what a Scottish farmer says: “The bloody-mindedness of the French or the Irish in standing up for agriculture was not just standing up for their farmers but actually brought a good deal for us as well. Without them we are more vulnerable,” said Nigel Miller, who has a sheep and cattle farm near Galashiels in Scotland’s Borders region. “The reality is, as a farmer, I don’t see the UK government expending a lot of negotiating capital to protect agriculture. Their main issue when they look for trade deals will be financial services, banking, etc,” Miller said. (https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-br...-idUKKBN17C0UE).
With Brexit, you can bet that most of the UK governmental investments will focus on the south-east of England, overlooking Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales and the north of England. Here are some articles showing how the EU financially supports the poorest regions of the UK and helps create jobs there:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politi...endum-36561084 https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...-how-does-thi/
https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/p...ost-eu-funding

Last but not least, the EU protects the rights of the workers and consumers and improves the standards for food and environment in the UK.
The EU currently bans the import of chlorinated chicken and hormone-treated beef. With Brexit, the UK will be at the mercy of the US and will be forced to accept the importation of chlorinated chicken and hormone-treated beef in any trade deal with the US.
Recently, British consumers also benefited from an EU directive banning charges for credit card payments: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8157521.html
With Brexit, the UK will also become much more liberal. Johnson, Rees-Mogg and other Brexiters have clearly said that they want to turn the UK into a tax haven with Singapore as a model. That will mean less taxes and therefore less money for public services like the NHS, housing, and education. That will also mean less rights for workers who will be expected to work longer hours for less money (https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk...ministers-urge).
EU laws currently limit the working week to 48 hours and have significantly improved the British workers' rights: "It was the EU that forced the UK government in 1993 to extend maternity leave to all working women. It was the EU that has closed the loopholes in UK law left pregnant British women vulnerable to firing as recently as 1994. It was the EU that forced the UK to legislate for equal pay for work of equal value, and that, most recently, has introduced equal pay and pensions for part-time workers, 75% of who are women" (https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top...exit-1-5541758).

[seany65]

Jacques22:

As far as I understand it, 2 Leave campaign groups got together and collectively spent a bit more than they should have. Are we sure that the total they spent together is NOT the same amount as the total they would've spent had they stayed completely separate?

Either way I strongly doubt that the 'extra' spending made any difference to the result.

The supposed Russian involvement is just part of the demonization of Russia that has been going on for a few years. As far as I'm concerned it's a bit like the "Zinoviev Letter" that was bandied about in the 1920's that prevented the election of the Labour party during a campaign which had previously seen the popularity of that party being far higher than certain people liked.

You did slightly misquote me as the bit you quoted from my previous post excludes the bit about the "Fall back/"back stop" positions I think the EU wants the UK to have in case of "No deal" even before the EU will talk to us about a deal.

After Brexit (IF it actually happens in reality and not just in name) the UK Govt. will probably try to spend most money in the south east. It is up to the rest of us to stop that by campaigning and electing parties that won't do that.

We will have to try to force any Govt. we have at the time of trade negotiations with the US to refuse any chlorinated Chicken and so on.

Being in the EU has really not helped the UK's fishing industry.

[judy84]

The Remain side have so much to answer for. Massive over spending, free campaigning by the govt (leaflet to every household), Government civil servants, Bank of England, just about all the establishment mass media (including BBC, Sky, C4, Euronews, Guardian, Independent, FT, Observer, Mirror, Economist) and all the celebs and luvvies putting out stories of disasters that will befall us if we even dare to consider voting to Leave.

Foreign interference with the referendum (Obama,Clinton, G7, IMF) to name just a few of the dubious practices.

The country voted to Leave and all the predictions failed to materialize, much like the new set will fail to realize on March 30th 2019.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...-EU-membership

I've seen enough talk about the referendum now and there will be no second one, no hard or soft Brexit just Brexit. We are leaving with FTA or WTO arrangement.

Britain and the European Union formally filed for divorce at the World Trade Organization on Tuesday 25th, following many months of diplomatic preparations to smooth the way for the historic move.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-br...-idUKKBN1KE2LJ