Current Politics in the United Kingdom

[seany65]

Just wondering if "what we want access to" cannot be accessed by any other country outside the EU, and if it can do they have to pay for access to it?

I don't mean just Norway or Iceland etc. I mean China and Japan etc.

[Meini Again]

Originally Posted by Wendigo

If the EU was professionally organised then on invoking Article 50 the country that wanted to leave should have been presented with a list of future commitments it has to honour, not horse trading for years after.

Are you serious ?

Gordon Bennet.... the EU has the MOST cynical and professional Civil Servants in history. They grew up on Rules & Regs !

The procession of Theresa May's Girl Guide Troop into the Lair of the Wolves, raises the real question of the UK's professionally organised
presentation.

Not to matter.... Wendi-man.... we're stockpiling food and medicines ... cos that shows we're clever !

[palo5]

Originally Posted by seany65

Just wondering if "what we want access to" cannot be accessed by any other country outside the EU, and if it can do they have to pay for access to it?

I don't mean just Norway or Iceland etc. I mean China and Japan etc.

Yes, I'm sure they can and do. I've heard that Russia is to be included in one or two of the projects, actually, but don't remember details

But questions arise with projects concerning security & data, because third countries are not bound by EU laws and can't be held accountable in EU courts. The EU does not want its most sensitive information "trojan horsed" back to the Americans or others, as has happened in the past

So if the EU is to concede top level access to anything in that field, it needs a watertight deal with any other party. Trust does not come into it

[Wendigo]

Originally Posted by Meini Again

Are you serious ?


Not to matter.... Wendi-man.... we're stockpiling food and medicines ... cos that shows we're clever !

No as I said previously and as HMG have said the NHS are stockpiling in case a hard Brexit is forced on us as the only option. It is a contingency plan and something every large organisation (not just countries) should be doing as part of its planning ahead so yes.... it is clever

To do nothing and just hope a deal can be reached would be stupid.


The plain facts are that we chose to leave the EU and we will, going back is not an option as we will lose all our opt outs and have to join the Euro. No political party could ever hope to sell that to the public.
If the EU does not want to compromise any more let us just shake hands and accept the differences cannot be bridged and separate as soon as possible.

The British people never voted to be part of the EU and over the years our relationship has been strained on many occasions, we never accepted the European ideal that many other countries appear happy to endorse and good luck to them, we will still be neighbours and over time our differences may lessen.

There will be tough years ahead but we have faced periods of real hardship before, as have many nations, I see no reason we cannot with proper planning survive and thrive outside the EU, it would help if we had a new kind of political thought and leadership one determined to confront hard issues and be honest with the public.

[judy84]

Project Fear?


Sir Michael Rawlins, chairman of the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency (MHRA), said Britain imports 'every drop' of insulin used in the country.



https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8467516.html



However human insulin is made by Lilly UK and Wockhardt in UK


http://www.wockhardt.co.uk/our-uk-manufacturing.aspx


https://www.lilly.co.uk/en/products/index.aspx


https://www.diabetes.co.uk/diabetes-industries.html


Maybe if they got back to David Davis' Canada-type deal, May won't be kicked out very soon.

[scoundrel]

Apparently we need another referendum because in the last one the Leave side told everyone lies and in the new one the Remain side will make sure we are all informed of the real truth. Truths such as:

• All Britain's insulin supplies are imported -that's a new one. Total bullshit.
• There would need to be an emergency budget to cope with the immediate economic consequences if we voted to Leave. Mr Osborne abandoned the deficit reduction target immediately after the vote. Three weeks later, Theresa May became PM and one of her first actions was to sack George Osborne. So maybe this one came true...
• Two thirds of British jobs in manufacturing depend on demand from Europe (Alan Johnson).
• "As a historian I fear Brexit could be the beginning of the destruction of not only the EU but also Western political civilisation in its entirety." ~ Donald Tusk 13.6.2016
• Britain is going to be "back of the queue" in any future trade negotiations with the USA. Of course, this was back when the USA used to believe in honouring its treaty commitments and used to be a reliable negotiating party.
• And there are almost as many Brits living elsewhere in the EU as there are other EU nationals in Britain. - Not so: there are about 1.2 million British nationals living across the EU and about 3.2 EU member country nationals living in the UK.

Both sides in the referendum lied shamelessly and based their campaigns on deceit and deflection. Were there to be a second referendum, it is most unlikely that the Remain campaign will either be more truthful or more relevant to non-economic core issues. Even now, the Remain side has not answered the question of how membership of the EU is consistent with British national sovereignty, or even what is meant to be so fucking good about the free movement of labour. The idea seems to be that we can make Project Fear much more scary if we get another crack at it.

So, ladies and gentlemen, we voted wrong last time and we let Westminster and Brussels down. There needs to be another vote so that we can redeem ourselves.

[seany65]

mokonojo, you mention a "A people's vote..."

What was the last vote?

I take it you expect this second referendum will be done after all of those questions have been answered.

With the EU demanding that Britain has "fall back"/"back stop" positions of:

Remaining in the Single Market, in case of "No Deal"*

Remaining in the Customs Union in case of "No Deal"*

Accepting Free Movement of all EU citizens, in case of "No Deal"*

(*Am I correct in these?)

and yet having "left" the EU and so not having much, if any say at all, in any EU ideas/legislations/laws/deals that affect these things while still paying money to the EU,

IE. A UK that has basically been 'silenced' and so not allowed to oppose anything the EU says or does while still being in it and paying into it,

Exactly WHAT would the EU ever want to "negotiate"? As far as they are concerned giving us any deal would undermine what for them would the best scenario possible.

[palo5]

There are inconsistent ideas about "national sovereignty" in this thread. In many ways, one can understand the notion of wanting to make one's own laws and being judged by one's own courts. And therefore you could, if you were such a simpleton, reject the idea of treaties with other states and organizations such as the EU, because then external ideas are imposed on you

But when the same people also say they will be "more sovereign" when they are free to make more treaties (exactly what they don't like) with other states and organizations, including the one they want to leave, one worries about their capacity for logical thinking. Because one way or another they will be back where they started, except much diminished in national importance and wealth. Oh well...

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by palo5

There are inconsistent ideas about "national sovereignty" in this thread. In many ways, one can understand the notion of wanting to make one's own laws and being judged by one's own courts. And therefore you could, if you were such a simpleton, reject the idea of treaties with other states and organizations such as the EU, because then external ideas are imposed on you

I don't know where you extrapolated the idea that the Leave vote was opposed to the "idea of treaties with other states". I think this is a leap of your fertile imagination.

The Leave vote opposed the imposition of supra-national authority on matters which are rightfully the right and duty of the British people to decide. What Remain campaign organisers didn't realise when resorting to Project Fear is that they don't have a monopoly on fear. Many Leave voters are (with valid reasons) afraid of what the EU is metamorphosing itself into, like the man in the Kafka story who turns into a beetle. The persistent lies we have experienced in 43 years of membership have reinforced our no-confidence in our own politicians who were supposed to veto this shit and evidently OK'd it.

The EU wants to become a Federal Union; a lot of British citizens want to leave the train now before this can be signed off by our Westminster quislings and we can be deprived of our nationhood, a thing for which we have fought in wars to preserve. None of this means we are against treaties; it means we want to negotiate and settle treaties for ourselves as a country and not have them settled and decided, against our interests, by foreigners in Brussels.

As recently as the referendum just gone we were firmly assured that there is to be no single European Army; yet our EU partners continue to urge that this is introduced, including President Macron, who campaigned in France on the need for the EU to reform, and yet acts as French president on the need for the EU to get even bigger and even bossier. Is it a surprise that we do not trust the EU and do not trust our politicians not to betray us?

The EU is not a treaty. It is a conspiracy. I hope this clears up your misunderstanding?

[Enrico32]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

The Leave vote opposed the imposition of supra-national authority on matters which are rightfully the right and duty of the British people to decide.

What the "national" government can decide that need not to be first affirmed (even informally) by regional jurisdictions?

In that way, all of Europe and the whole world is just a multitude of small regions, each different in the amount of bread and cloth to be consumed, and soldiers to be manned.