Tanks!!

[Mal Hombre]

An unexploded 17 Pounder shell lodged in the frontal armour of a Tiger..

[Rogerbh]

"unexploded"? If the shell has an explosive element, how did they cut out the section without risking setting it off?

[Dr Pepper]

Originally Posted by Rogerbh

"unexploded"? If the shell has an explosive element, how did they cut out the section without risking setting it off?

I suspect Mal Hombre might have meant 'intact' rather than unexploded in the literal sense-it's still a great photo though-and testament to how good the armour was...

I quote from Wiki [because it won't let me cut and paste directly] "...Used with the APDS shot it was capable of defeating all but the thickest armour on German tanks.It was used to 'up gun' some foreign built vehicles in British service, notably the Sherman Firefly variant of the US M4 Sherman tank, giving british tank units the ability to hold their own against their German counterparts. In the antitank role it was replaced after the war by the 120mm BAT recoilless rifle. As a tank gun it was succeeded by the 84mm 20-pounder."

And the photo shows it to be clearly a 'shot' projectile-there is no fuse cavity in the base of the projectile-the small depression visible is much too small for a fuse-and likely to be where the tracer element was located.

In any case-by that stage of the war practice had moved away from APHE projectiles in favour of solid shot-either APDS or APCR. The use of the term 'shot' by definition means a projectile with no explosive content.

[Rogerbh]

Thanks for the info. Good to have ex-tankers on this forum imparting their knowledge. I kept staring at that shell wondering what type it was. That show - Danger UXB - showed me that at least German bombs did not have fuses on the nose or rear where I thought they would be so I was wondering how they could cut metal without dangerously heating the explosive element (if it had any) in that shell. (I know nothing of cutting torches and how much they heat the surrounding metal) I would expect the fragments from that puncture killed any crew nearby anyway. Doubt the crew was still fighting with that shell stuck in them. Still an interesting set of pictures.

[Dr Pepper]

Originally Posted by Rogerbh

Thanks for the info. Good to have ex-tankers on this forum imparting their knowledge. I kept staring at that shell wondering what type it was. That show - Danger UXB - showed me that at least German bombs did not have fuses on the nose or rear where I thought they would be so I was wondering how they could cut metal without dangerously heating the explosive element (if it had any) in that shell. (I know nothing of cutting torches and how much they heat the surrounding metal) I would expect the fragments from that puncture killed any crew nearby anyway. Doubt the crew was still fighting with that shell stuck in them. Still an interesting set of pictures.

Actually your concerns were well founded-a projectile with any HE content probably would have gone off with the amount of heat needed to cut through that piece of armour-and you can see in the photos it was done with a gas torch. And there would certainly have been secondary fragmentation from the impact-we call it 'spalling'. Depending where the hit was it might or might not have done the crew a mischief! I can guarantee it would have made their ears ring, regardless!
Looking at the photos with a more critical eye, I think we are not looking at the heavy core of an APDS projectile-judging by the visible gun metal driving band at the rear-and the penetrating core of an APDS round would not have a driving band. The other 17-pounder round extensively used was the "armour piercing capped ballistic capped" APCBC which partially fits the photos posted-but it has to have shed both caps to generate the nose profile seen here. Of course it might simply be that what we are seeing is the result of a penetration trial conducted on a captured vehicle, or piece of armour from a Tiger by the British during the late war or immediate postwar period-so it might not even be a 'normal' 17 pounder projectile but an experimental one.

Whatever the actual truth-it's a fascinating group of photos.

[sobaka]

Originally Posted by mjm1963

Interesting. Tiger Battalions were raised from experienced Panzer Crews. Tigers were mega-expensive to manufacture. Flip side on the coin. Tiger kill ratio was 10-1 on the Russian front and 7-1 on the Western Front, an amazing figure never achieved by any other singular tank type (not even the American Abrams)

Flip side of the coin again, the TOTAL number of Tiger I built was 1368 of every version built (including Sturmtigers and Bergetigers). At it's peak there were only 90 Tigers available MAX (Kursk 1943) at any one time

The point I'm trying to make is the Tiger I, in my opinion, was a good tank. Given to excellent tank crews, and they were, Tiger Battalions achieved amazing results.

But ultimately they were never going to beat 50,000 Shermans, Lees, M10s etc. Plus the countless Russian types

Even experienced crews got over confident and made stupid errors, witness Wittman's death ride.

[haroldeye]

Originally Posted by danton

Two views of a Challenger tank outside the Discovery Museum Newcastle upon Tyne. The Vickers factory where the Challenger Mk. I (Oh dear ....) and the superb Mk. II (longest tank on tank [T72, Iraq] kill ever recorded) were built at Scotswood not far away. I presume the taffic cones are to stop anyone stealing it.

No more ...

That's where it went. I used to drive past that most days when it was the gate guard for Vickers and was very sad when it vanished. Where was the CR2 - T72 kill?

[brk549]

i'd like to see the torch they used to cut that section out,it wasn't cut from each side it blew all the way through.

[paul163]

IS3 .... 111..

[paul163]

Algeria army.... T-72..