The Football Thread

[Roger Allott]

It goes without saying that the idiot who got onto the pitch and punched Chris Kirkland deserves a significant criminal penalty and barring from not only any future football matches but any future sporting event. However, making a case against Leeds United is more troublesome.

The difficulty in arriving at a just outcome in the case of the Kirkland incident revolves around the awkward fact that it happened at Hillsborough, where the home team (Sheffield Wednesday) is responsible for security.

And as there was obviously a lapse in security, it is Sheffield Wednesday who should get some sort of penalty. But that would go against 'natural justice'.

So, what responsibility does a club have for the behaviour of its fans at away matches, bearing in mind that it has very little, if any, input to security arrangements at such matches?

[victor meldrew]

Originally Posted by Roger Allott

And as there was obviously a lapse in security, it is Sheffield Wednesday who should get some sort of penalty. But that would go against 'natural justice'.

So, what responsibility does a club have for the behaviour of its fans at away matches, bearing in mind that it has very little, if any, input to security arrangements at such matches?

Not sure I would want to be a steward standing in front of Leeds fans, if memory serves, little or no stewarding at UP for them last season.

I purchase my ticket from West Ham, if the Leeds lad has done the same, surely Leeds have to take some responsibilty, or do they sell to anyone?

Going to football should be an enjoyable time, not living in fear of a beating, clubs need to be accountable.

[Roger Allott]

Originally Posted by victor meldrew

Not sure I would want to be a steward standing in front of Leeds fans, if memory serves, little or no stewarding at UP for them last season.

I purchase my ticket from West Ham, if the Leeds lad has done the same, surely Leeds have to take some responsibilty, or do they sell to anyone?

Going to football should be an enjoyable time, not living in fear of a beating, clubs need to be accountable.

In terms of 'natural justice', I agree with you completely, but I'm not sure that the legal position is quite so clear cut.

Sure, if he did buy his ticket from LUFC, then LUFC have a responsibility to check that they're not selling to people likely to do this sort of act. But if he's never (until now) appeared on the radar of the club or the police for football-related violence (as might be the case), I doubt that they can be charged with neglecting their responsibility on that front.

Fortunately (in this instance), the FA/Football League don't need to worry about the actual law of the land too much, because they can impose their own penalties based upon their rules and their interpretation of events. In my opinion, a fine of any size would be ridiculous - it needs to be a playing penalty, which means a points deduction, and I'd reckon that 3 points would be about right.

Perhaps what would also be fair would be a restriction on the number of LUFC supporters allowed at their away matches, with the club needing to compensate all other clubs in their division for the loss of revenue that that would entail. So, not a fine as such, where the money just goes to the Football League and gets lost, but a direct payment from LUFC to each of the other 23 teams in the Championship.

[seany65]

The leeds fan should be punished of course, but only to the extent that he would be if he'd done it to an ordinary mermber of the public away from any football ground. Prison for that would be a ridiculous over-reaction.

As for punishing Leeds, that to me is inconceivable due to the fact that it's not practical for football clubs to put every fan through psychometric testing before selling them every ticket just in case their psychological makeup has changed since they last bought a ticket. Leeds cannot be held responsible for what their fan did, they cannot have known he would do that, unless he actually tried to kill the goalie and Leeds knew about it and conspired in the crime, but I doubt that was the case so Leeds should not be punished.

[trugoythewhitedove]

Being (Un)Fortunate enough to catch the event live last night, I have to say that I was astounded . You just can't legislate for arseholes. Thank fcuk, or I'd be behind bars every-time I had a drink in me...

Seriously however, I'd have to agree with Mr Roger. Whilst I understand that Leeds are an historically disliked club in England, How can they be blamed for the actions of a fool in Sheffield ?

Given the recent developments surrounding Hillsborough, surely no-one would like to see supporters caged like animals again ? Therefore as people, we must be trusted to police ourselves.

This guy is an arsehole, who will certainly be identified - and charged in relation to a public order offence.

The worst he'll get is six months - meaning two. It's not as though he attacked the Boat Race, or anything, is it ?

On another point.

I was wondering what you lads thought about Alex Ferguson (White bloke in his '70's) telling black men half his age when to and when not to be offended ?

Just curious.

Is it incumbent on him to - as the voice of a multi-cultural football club of massive popularity - have to paint fairly broad strokes.

Is it incumbent on him to - as the voice of a multi-billion dollar concern, with eye-watering debts - reinforce the corporate message, regardless of how ridiculous that makes the entire exercise seem ?

Or is it not really any of his business, what other human beings feel ?

[Pauldec]

This guy is an arsehole, who will certainly be identified

He already has been on the message board of a national newspaper. Will be careful what I say here but let's just say it's not the first time...he's ever been to a football match.

As for Sir Fergie well I suspect it's the old shop steward/closed shop mentality coming out here plus he's the boss so you tow the line. Methinks he'll have to soften his line. As for Rio well fair play to him. We may be getting to the stage where well-intentioned symbolic gestures may take second-place to real action to stamp out racism. certainly hope so.

[Roger Allott]

Originally Posted by trugoythewhitedove

I was wondering what you lads thought about Alex Ferguson (White bloke in his '70's) telling black men half his age when to and when not to be offended ?

Just curious.

He wasn't telling Ferdinand "when to and when not to be offended", he was telling him that if he wants to make a protest about his personal feelings, he should done it in his private time, not when he's representing his employer.

And as an employee, he should take care when expressing a point of view that is contrary to that stated by his employer.

That seems perfectly reasonable to me.

[Devius]

Originally Posted by trugoythewhitedove

On another point.

I was wondering what you lads thought about Alex Ferguson (White bloke in his '70's) telling black men half his age when to and when not to be offended ?

Just curious.

Is it incumbent on him to - as the voice of a multi-cultural football club of massive popularity - have to paint fairly broad strokes.

Is it incumbent on him to - as the voice of a multi-billion dollar concern, with eye-watering debts - reinforce the corporate message, regardless of how ridiculous that makes the entire exercise seem ?

Or is it not really any of his business, what other human beings feel ?

Like Daglish (over the Luis Suarez affair), I don't think Fergie gets it.
To Rio, wearing a T-shirt stating "Kick It Out" must feel like a bad joke, in the aftermath of the JT affair with his brother Anton (who I reacll had received death threats and a bullet in the post).

I now think the incidents involving Luis Suarez and JT (and just as importantly the response) has been a revalation to black footballers in this country and I believe one day a black player will say "enough is enough" and walk off the pitch in protest (either here or abroad) if facing perceived racist abuse.

[victor meldrew]

Rio Ferdinand needs to sort out his priorities, refuses to tow the company line by not wearing a kick out racism t Shirt, because he feels little is being done on the subject, but its perfectly acceptable to him, to call Ashley Cole a chocice. I am not sure how he expects anything to be done, when he is sending out all the wrong messages.

[Devius]

Originally Posted by victor meldrew

Rio Ferdinand needs to sort out his priorities, refuses to tow the company line by not wearing a kick out racism t Shirt, because he feels little is being done on the subject, but its perfectly acceptable to him, to call Ashley Cole a chocice. I am not sure how he expects anything to be done, when he is sending out all the wrong messages.

A very good point....racism of all types is wrong. End of.