The Military History Thread

[rupertramjet]

The Legions Standards had huge significance to individual Legions, and it is quite true that they were recovered.

What exactly the Germans did with them is unclear, but it seems that they were stored in sacred groves, mirroring their use in the Roman legion where they were revered as deities and stored in a sanctuary, often together with statues and images of the emperor and the vexillae, the other standards; but Arminius and his Cherusci seem to have captured none of the Eagles.Although there is a suggestion that Arminius gave them to various tribes as a reward, During the reign of Augustus, the recovered standards (signa recepta) were an important propaganda asset. Augustus had already recovered the eagles that had been lost to the Parthians in 20 BC, and erected a temple (the temple of Mars Ultor, or Mars the Avenger) to store them in on his new forum. Coins were minted that showed the temple together with the recovered Eagle and other standards. Similarly, the Eagles recovered from the Germans were celebrated as well. An arch was dedicated to Tiberius next to the temple of Saturn that celebrated the recovery of two of the Eagles under his command ("At the end of the year an arch was erected next to the temple of Saturn as thanks or the recovery of the standards lost with Varus under the leadership of Germanicus and the command of Tiberius" Tac. Ann. II, 41). Similarly, after the death of Germanicus in 19, three arches were erected in his honour, the one on the Rhine carrying a statue of Germanicus, showing him receiving back the Eagles from the defeated Germans:

Lets not forget that it was a huge act of treachery, by Arminius that led to the Battle in the first place, the ambush was superbly planned and executed, and the act of treachery that started it was Arminius, telling Varus about an uprising, leading the Legions into a trap. It was through Arminius and his clever diplomacy, that the Tribes worked together, it was rare and it was not a situation that lasted. immediately after the battle the tribes went their own way and the inter tribal conflicts continued.

[rupertramjet]

I am not sure if anyone has ever heard of Ben Kane. He is a historical novelist, he is also a fanatical researcher of his subject. He has written a trilogy, very much fact based, on this subject, which deals with the build up, the battle and the aftermath, several years later in the recovery of the Eagles, as said very much historically based and researched, but also a bloody good read!

'Eagles at War' Ben Kane . Arrow Books http://www.benkane.net/

[Ernesto75]

Originally Posted by rupertramjet

Lets not forget that it was a huge act of treachery, by Arminius that led to the Battle in the first place, the ambush was superbly planned and executed, and the act of treachery that started it was Arminius, telling Varus about an uprising, leading the Legions into a trap. It was through Arminius and his clever diplomacy, that the Tribes worked together, it was rare and it was not a situation that lasted. immediately after the battle the tribes went their own way and the inter tribal conflicts continued.

Yes, it was an act of treachery by Arminius who had been educated as a Roman.
Arminius had the Roman citizenship and he had a Roman military education.

He obtained an important military grade.

All this made him a traitor, and a very clever one.

We can compare him to the gaul Vercingetorix, but the difference is that Vercingetorix was not Roman.
He was a king son of a king and a very good leader.
He was the first and the only one who succeeded in uniting the Celtic nations in Gaul against Julius Caesar.
So although Vercingetorix was a patriot he was no traitor while we can call Arminius a traitor, although a patriot to his former compatriots.

We must ask ourselves : should we have accepted the Roman occupation ?
Later on we did not accept the German occupation.

[Ennath]

Arminius apparently let his success go to his head and began trying to dominate the other German tribes himself and make himself a sort of High King. He was murdered in AD 19. The German tribes were not about to let themselves be ruled by any outsider, Roman or otherwise.

[Ennath]

May 15, 1916
Battle of Asiago

Tired of continually defending his line along the Isonzo River in the seemingly endless Battles of the Isonzo, Austro-Hungarian Chief of Staff Franz Conrad von Hötzendorf resolved to mount an offensive. In December 1915, he approached his German counterpart, Erich von Falkenhayn, with details of a planned attack along the Trentino designed to knock the Italians out of the war in a single combined blow. This would require Austrian divisions in the East to be replaced with German ones, and including German divisions in the attack. His request was denied because Germany was not yet at war with Italy (which would declare war on Germany three months later), and because redeploying German units on the Italian Front would have diminished German offensive capability against Russia.

After having received a negative reply from the Germans, who refused the proposed replacement and actively tried to discourage the proposed attack, Conrad, convinced of the soundness of the idea, determined to press ahead without German assistance. His plan was to drive through the Trentino's mountain passes and to occupy Italy's northern plain, thereby trapping Italian forces along the Isonzo in addition to those based in the Carnic Alps. 11th Austro-Hungarian Army (Viktor Dankl) would carry out the offensive followed by 3rd Army (Hermann Kövess von Kövesshaza).

The frontier ran through high mountains and the limited Italian advances of 1915 had worsened the situation and excluded a great advance beyond the valleys of Valsugana and Val Lagarina (both connected by railway) and the plateaus of Lavarone, Folgaria and Asiago. It was not so easy, however, because the Italians had deployed in the area about 250,000 troops (Roberto Brusati's 1st Army and part of 4th Army). Italian intelligence had been gathering information about an impending enemy offensive in Trentino for about a month. Italian commander-in-chief Count Luigi Cadorna had taken note of Conrad's deployments to the Trentino and ordered Gen. Brusati to prepare. While Cadorna's warning was well-judged it came undone with Brusati's decision to ignore his instructions; instead he determined to continue with preparations already in hand to launch local attacks of his own.

Launched on May 15, 1916 during a lull in the Italian Isonzo offensives (of which there had been 5 to date, most recently in March) the attack was planned by Conrad himself and nominally executed by Archduke Eugen, commander of the southern front. It was well-timed. The Isonzo sector was quiet pending another Italian assault, and the Austro-Hungarian lines in the Balkans and in the East appeared sufficiently stable to justify action elsewhere. Conrad therefore assembled 18 divisions. As battle began, the Austrians enjoyed a notable superiority in artillery (some 2000 guns) and outnumbered the Italian infantry by 4-1.

Brusati’s troops were deployed well forward in hopes of their own offensive. The consequence was painful for the Italians. Austrian 3rd and 11th armies stormed the Italian positions along a 40 mile front and, at least initially, succeeded in achieving substantial gains. On May 19, Archduke Karl, heir to the throne and commander of 11th Army’s XX Corps, spearhead of the offensive, sent a message to Conrad, “Breakthrough completed.” The Italians were pushed back 5 miles behind Posina in the center of their line by May 22, and then a further 5.5 beyond Asiago within a further week. Rather inexplicably, Archduke Eugen issued orders for regrouping his forces, sending 3rd Army into a flanking movement at the Assa Gorge, instead of supporting XX Corps’ rapid advance and thus providing the Italians with valuable time for reinforcing their frontline troops.

On the 20th, Cadorna conferred with Gen. Pietro Frugoni, commanding 2nd Army, and the Duke of Aosta, commanding 3rd Army, on the Isonzo front. Deeply concerned that Austrian XX Corps might break through into the Venetian Plains, Cadorna and his commanders agreed to the possibility of abandoning the Isonzo front and to otherwise take all necessary steps to shore up the Trentino defenses.

Asiago itself - scene of the offensive's heaviest fighting - was evacuated by the Italians on May 29. Fortunately for the Italians the ruggedness of the terrain served to impede the Austrian supply chain and gave Cadorna an opportunity to save the situation. Half a million men were sent to the Trentino by use of a highly efficient railway system. The Austrian advance slowed to a crawl and the front stabilized on June 2.

On June 4, Russian Gen. Alexei Brusilov launched a major offensive in Galicia, shattering the Austrian armies opposite him. The Italians began counterattacks on the 9th and back and forth fighting ensued until the 18th. By then Conrad had been forced to transfer almost half his divisions to the east and he called off the Trentino offensive. On June 25, the Italians opened a major counteroffensive, quickly retaking Asiago. Within 3 days, they had retaken half the territory lost in May. By the end of July, almost all Austrian gains had been erased.

Casualties were heavy. The Austro-Hungarians lost 89,000 men. The Italians lost 147,000. Antonio Salandra's government fell and was replaced by Paolo Boselli.

[rupertramjet]

Originally Posted by Ernesto75

Yes, it was an act of treachery by Arminius who had been educated as a Roman.
Arminius had the Roman citizenship and he had a Roman military education.

He obtained an important military grade.

All this made him a traitor, and a very clever one.

An excellent Undergraduate Thesis from Danielle Torres, which deals very well with Arminus the person. One can but hope it earned him a First!

https://www.uvm.edu/sites/default/fi...sis_Torres.pdf

[Ernesto75]

Originally Posted by rupertramjet

An excellent Undergraduate Thesis from Danielle Torres, which deals very well with Arminus the person. One can but hope it earned him a First!

https://www.uvm.edu/sites/default/fi...sis_Torres.pdf

Excellent indeed.

[Ernesto75]

Another link :

Vercingétorix ou l'Epopée des Rois Gaulois by Anne de Lesleuc.

(Vercingétorix or Celtic Kings' Epic)
http://www.editionsarchipel.com/livr...-rois-gaulois/

This excellent book is written like a historic novel but relates to true facts.
It seems there is no English translation.

[rupertramjet]

Originally Posted by Ennath

Arminius apparently let his success go to his head and began trying to dominate the other German tribes himself and make himself a sort of High King. He was murdered in AD 19. The German tribes were not about to let themselves be ruled by any outsider, Roman or otherwise.

I believe this to be true, but the huge problem is the lack of written histories from the German tribes of this time, and to quote Danielle Torres, Tacitus was writing over a hundred years later, as were most Roman historians, he was murdered, which to me confirms the statement, but he was a German from the Cherusci, taken with his brother to Rome as a small child, interestingly his brother remained loyal to Rome through out.

[Ernesto75]

Sadly these heroes led very short lives:
- Arminius assassinated about 10 years after his resounding victory, by his own compatriots;
- Vercingétorix murdered after Caesar's triumph;
- Boadicea who probably died shortly after her defeat.