Current Politics in the United Kingdom

[G-Type]

I am meanwhile losing the overview who responds to which post.

Is it Wendigo who responds to Vince or to laberbacke respectively. As for the latter, I think that he/she is from Non-UK origin...just judging from the name which is a German expression.

Anyway, I just notice that the tone of the "Brexiteers" is getting more and more nervous and thin-coated...one of the reasons I (for my part) have not been participating in the discussion throughout the last weeks.

Please, don´t use the argument of an always existing sound strategy on how to get the best out of a deal. If you had one, you would not panically repeat that the vote for the Brexit was a binding one...of course it was and it has to be respected.

The problem is that your actual government is lead by a PM who is a remainer at heart. Future will tell if she succeeds to get her cabinet behind her plans for a "softer" Brexit. Frankly speaking, I have my doubts.

On the other hand (and this comes from a person who would have voted to remain), the more I hear and the more I read -especially here-, the more I do come to the conclusion that it might be best to fulfill the binding vote from your people and your government to regain the "full sovereignity" of your country.

Each and every move towards a softer exit does nothing but undermine what you (The Brexiteers) want.

I am absolutely confident that you could do well without any linkage to the EU, as well as the EU could do without the UK.

Each and every day, you underline your core principles and the necessity to regain your independence.

This - in its plain simplicity - will only work with a Hard Brexit.

Both sides will need to deal with the consequences then - I am fully convinced: both sides can.
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[seany65]

Originally Posted by vinceprince

My question though is to (hard) leavers is:
What are you or can you actually do about it apart from moaning on internet forums?

Who are you going to vote for? As I said the Tory line is - any vote not for us just let's in Corbyn - and they're right about this under our FPTP system.

If you mean what can hard Brexiteers do about getting a hard brexit, then the answer: Absolutely bog all.

The only thing that hard Brexiteers can do if there's an election before we actually leave, in order to at least try to make sure we actually leave and not just change our deal so that in truth we're still in the EU while saying we've left, then the answer is: Feel sick to the stomach while voting for the tories and putting the X in the box with our non-writing hand so that we can chop it off afterwards and still be able to write.-but only if the tories campaign on leaving the EU, with the view that the tories can be voted out IF the other parties don't campaign on taking us back in.

[scoundrel]

If the decision to Leave the EU is openly sabotaged, I would predict a division of the British people which will last for generations. How this will express itself in actions I cannot foretell, but I can foretell that the Leave voters will not file the open contempt for their vote under "no action taken"; though they may bide their time, because revenge is a dish best eaten cold. Oil refinery blockades are so "last year" but other mischief making options will be available.

Much more serious, people will disengage from the democratic process much more than they already have. Even if you are a Remainer, you will not fail to observe that the elected tribunes of the people are not serving their voters, but rather are serving others and working against their voters. That is actually a dangerous thing; these are the stagnant waters in which mosquito swarms such as fascism and communism once hatched out. Society will much safer and more stable if we live in a representative democracy; but in a genuine representative democracy, parliamentarians respect a referendum vote decision, and we have seen that here in the UK the parliamentarians have not respected the referendum at all.

Mrs May has shown herself to be weak, She really really should have stood down or been forced out after the dreadful performance of her 2017 General Election. The Tories were most unwise to persevere with her. All this time has been wasted before they even confronted the Brexit plan issue, and in the chaotic welter of ministerial resignations we have seen the reason why this vital step was postponed so long. It is because Mrs May runs a minority government and can't manage if a sizable body of MPs on her own benches decide to take away their support. The General Election was supposed to strengthen Mrs May but she made such a hash of it that she weakened her own government instead; with results we are now seeing.

Be damned if I would endorse a referendum ever again on any issue.; a referendum does not settle the question. But a General Election would be a much more intelligent way to resolve the current dilemma. It should be fought on the Brexit ticket. Mrs May was so intoxicated with her over-confident reaction to opinion polls that she indulged in a Tory-Boy wet dream of cutting essential services, scrapping programs which benefit ordinary people, such as free school meals, wanting to bankrupt and disinherit families if their old folks succumb to dementia, and even [Jesus on a bike] wanting to bring back fox-hunting. This is a key reason why she should go; she can't uninvent herself, having been the person who wanted to do all this malignant shit. If she leads the Tories into a future election these issues will resurface. But if she doesn't call an election, the parliament which exists today will fail to pass anything except a non-Brexit Brexit such as the government's present proposal; and might not be able even to pass that.

[Nobody1]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

Mrs May has shown herself to be weak..

The EU will set a warning example with Britain. No negotiation or made concession will be able to prevent this, there is simply too much at stake for Brussels.

The British people have to be prepared for that.

[Marcsimus]

I honestly don't know how Brexit will affect me, in some respects I don't care. Two years after the vote and still nobody truly knows what is happening.......it just needs to be sorted.

Britain cannot afford to lose a company like Airbus, if they go, who else will follow?

[bubbs999]

WTF is going on ?



We couldn't negotiate our way out of a paper bag !


6 months ago I was both feeling sorry for (and laughing my ass off, at) America, as Trumps shennanigans were making the US an international joke.


My god - we are now the laughing stock off the world. I never thought I would live to see the day this country become a quivering disorganised wreck



There are 3rd world African Nations run with more direction and organisation than the farce, that is the UK government


The other day, the 100th centenary of the Royal Air Force was held.

My god - the brave men who gave their lives in this countries service must be turning in their grave at the shambles we have now become.



If we leave the EU, then we have to leave - completely, irrevocably - Full Stop !


If not, then we must eat humble pie - remain, and the UK government must admit that it has wasted everyones time - frustrated all EU citizens, and pissed countless £millions away to achieve nothing.

We could have plowed all that money into public services, but we have pissed it up the wall because our leaders are utterly incompetent.


What a f**king shambles

[laberbacke]

Originally Posted by bubbs999

If not, then we must eat humble pie - remain, and the UK government must admit that it has wasted everyones time - frustrated all EU citizens, and pissed countless £millions away to achieve nothing.

But therein lies the crux of the matter, does it not? The EU has appeased Britain for so long to keep it happy and keep it from leaving, granted this special deal and that rebate, that Britain's leaders presumed a divorce would proceed as lopsided in their favor as the 40 years of marriage that came before.


In their arrogance they misunderestimated (as George Bush would say) the EU - they misunderstood that holding fast to its four freedoms was a matter of the very survival of the union, and they underestimated the stronger negotiating position the EU would have as a representative of 450 million people vs 60 million. Much to their surprise, the rest of the continent actually stuck together for once, even countries like Poland and Hungary whose leaders constantly grumble about Brussels, but love money it pours into their communities. Much to the Tory's surprise, the leaders of behemoths China and the United States aren't eager to make new, better deals with tiny Britain either.



When I look at the UK, I see a country that vastly overestimates its own status and importance in the world, because its people have yet to fully internalize that they're not an empire that rules the waves anymore. It is an island in the North Atlantic with few natural resources and a standard of living that derives considerably from its imperial legacy of globalized commerce and banking, the very industry threatened most by Brexit.


Of course this kind of unwarranted arrogance can be found in France or here in Germany as well, though in smaller quantity, thankfully. Those who believe that the old European nation state will have a stronger position in the world when it stands alone have a poor grasp of geopolitics and Realpolitik in my opinion. This century will be dominated by the power struggle between the old global empire, the United States, and the new empire, China, and if the Europeans do not stick together and bargain collectively, they will simply be picked off one by one and ground to dust between these giants.

[G-Type]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

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Mrs May has shown herself to be weak, She really really should have stood down or been forced out after the dreadful performance of her 2017 General Election. The Tories were most unwise to persevere with her. All this time has been wasted before they even confronted the Brexit plan issue, and in the chaotic welter of ministerial resignations we have seen the reason why this vital step was postponed so long. It is because Mrs May runs a minority government and can't manage if a sizable body of MPs on her own benches decide to take away their support. The General Election was supposed to strengthen Mrs May but she made such a hash of it that she weakened her own government instead; with results we are now seeing.

Be damned if I would endorse a referendum ever again on any issue.; a referendum does not settle the question. But a General Election would be a much more intelligent way to resolve the current dilemma. It should be fought on the Brexit ticket.
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But if she doesn't call an election, the parliament which exists today will fail to pass anything except a non-Brexit Brexit such as the government's present proposal; and might not be able even to pass that.

I fully agree.

In one of my earlier posts, I have tried to outline why referendums can turn to be highly dangerous. Not only because they are "pictures of the moment", but especially when the information (pros and cons) prior to the referendum is carelessly wrong or spread by highly biased propaganda.

It would have been more preferable to decide the future of the UK (Brexit yes or no) by a regular election. I am very sure that all parties involved would have used more plausible arguments in a regular campaign and tried to convince that way but they played their cards in a heated and highly divisive atmosphere and (generously) transferred their own incompetence to the ordinary people who (in most cases) don´t and naturally can´t have an exact knowing of all the economical and structural interdependencies that modern societies share.

The question is: What would a new election bring at that very moment? Most probably, Mrs. May´s days were numbered (government-wise).

Would the UK then have a Prime Minister named Johnson or Corbyn and what would this mean for the actual negotiation process? Certainly more disturbances.

However, the "transatlantic wrecking-ball" named DT has already mentioned yesterday what would be his personal preference, threatening that he would reject a "deal" with the UK should Mrs. May continue.

I recall the famous meeting of Mrs. May and The Trumpster last year, talking and re-assuring each other of a "wonderful, special relationship", and now blaming her while being a hosted guest in the UK...highly remarkable that

At least -unlike us- you (the UK) are not controlled by the Russians

[bubbs999]

At least, you (the UK) are not controlled by the Russians

Da, comerade

[vinceprince]

Under Fixed-Term Parliaments Act rules, a majority in the Commons would have to vote no confidence in the Government to bring on an election. In practical terms, this means Mrs May losing the support of her Democratic Unionist Party allies or a sizeable number of Eurosceptic Tories – both groups with reason to fear a loss of influence in a new Parliament.

More likely is a Tory leadership coup.
Disgruntled Brexiteers need to muster 48 MPs’ signatures to secure a vote of no confidence, and 159 Tories’ votes to oust Theresa May and trigger a summer-long battle for the leadership, with possible candidates including Boris Johnson, Jeremy Hunt, Sajid Javid and maybe Jacob Rees-Mogg.
A full-blown three-month contest would produce a new Prime Minister – and potentially an entirely different approach to Brexit – just weeks before the crunch Brussels summit in October at which Britain’s withdrawal agreement is due to be finalised.

IMO the most likely situation is that she can't get her White Paper through Parliament due to Eurosceptics and Labour/LD/SNP voting against it, that may result in a stalemate in Parliament and she could resign as leader or even be forced to call an election to resolve it.