Atheist, are you one??

[Baranovich]

I really must make this point, because it was also a hugely contributing factor as to how I ended up going from a theistic Catholic to a complete Atheist.

Again, I do not wish to single out Christianity or to attack it in particular, and I mean no disrespect to anyone who is of that faith.

However, that being said, I would like to visually show one of the reasons/examples why that ONE - Jesus was so brilliant and so good at predicting human behavior, and TWO - why I find Christianity to be so blatantly shallow and pointless. Putting aside the huge problems with the believability/credibility of the story of Jesus truly being immortal, and truly being the son of god, let's look at how well or not well one particular major world religion actually pays attention to their very own messiah and their very own sacred text.

Jesus said, and I'm not going to quote him here, and I'm not going to debate what he truly meant or didn't mean, because there are hundreds of websites that quite underhandedly tweak and twist this to keep their happy, feel-good world intact. Jesus said in the Bible that denominations of his church would undermine his word, and undermine the SPIRIT of his word. He warned about the letter of the law being put before the spirit of the law. He was clearly warning everyone about dividing themselves into different denominations and dividing his word and abusing it by splitting into fractured versions which all follow the same messiah. That was one of Jesus' biggest warnings - DON'T divide yourselves and undermine the fundamental truth of what I'm teaching. DON'T let religion become more important than the principles of my word!

Jesus also warned us to not worship idols and things of vanity, to not build fancy, extravagant temples or huge obnoxious places of worship. He warned us to follow the WORD, and that was why he held the Sermon on the Mount outdoors, with no building, no chairs, no seating, no nothing. Simply because where they were all gathered on that mountain side WAS the church. The WORD was church. No building, statues, or gold chalices were needed. What mattered was the spirit of what he was teaching. Jesus clearly warned us to not allow religious objects and things of status to take precedence over his word.

So let's look at how over the past 2,000 years Christians have done with these, abiding by these two very simple commands.

First, DON'T divide yourselves, stay united as ONE under my word:

Here is a short list of SOME of the existing Christian denominations currently on earth:

African Methodist Episcopal Zion (1)
African Orthodox Church (1)
American Baptist Churches USA (3)
Amish (16)
Anabaptist (4)
Anglican Catholic Church@
Anglican Church (126)
Antiochian Orthodox@
Armenian Evangelical Church (1)
Armenian Orthodox@
Assemblies of God (18)
Associated Gospel Churches of Canada@
Association of Vineyard Churches (5)
Baptist (140)
Baptist Bible Fellowship (2)
Branch Davidian (2)
Brethren in Christ (1)
Bruderhof Communities (10)
Byzantine Catholic Church@
Calvary Chapel (3)
Calvinist (4)
Catholic (1460)
Cell Church (12)
Celtic Orthodox@
Charismatic Episcopal Church (2)
Christadelphian (12)
Christian and Missionary Alliance (4)
Christian Churches of God (1)
Christian Identity (5)
Christian Reformed Church (4)
Christian Science (7)
Church of God (Anderson) (3)
Church of God (Cleveland) (4)
Church of God (Seventh Day) (1)
Church of God in Christ (1)
Church of God of Prophecy (1)
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (118)
Church of Scotland@
Church of South India (1)
Church of the Brethren (7)
Church of the Lutheran Brethren of America (2)
Church of the Nazarene (14)
Church of the New Jerusalem (4)
Church of the United Brethren in Christ (2)
Church Universal and Triumphant (3)
Churches of Christ (26)
Churches of God General Conference (5)
Congregational Christian Churches (3)
Coptic Orthodox@
Cumberland Presbyterian Church (1)
Disciples of Christ (12)
Episcopal Church@
Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church (4)
Evangelical Congregational Church (4)
Evangelical Covenant Church (1)
Evangelical Formosan Church (1)
Evangelical Free Church (3)
Evangelical Lutheran Church (31)
Evangelical Methodist Church (1)
Evangelical Presbyterian (1)
Family, The (aka Children of God) (8)
Fellowship of Christian Assemblies (1)
Fellowship of Grace Brethren (3)
Fellowship of Independent Evangelical Churches (1)
Free Church of Scotland (3)
Free Methodist (6)
Free Presbyterian (2)
Free Will Baptist (4)
Gnostic@
Great Commission Association of Churches (2)
Greek Orthodox@
Hutterian Brethren (2)
Independent Fundamental Churches of America (1)
Indian Orthodox@
International Church of the Foursquare Gospel (3)
International Churches of Christ (6)
Jehovah's Witnesses (22)
Living Church of God (6)
Local Church (7)
Lutheran (37)
Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod (18)
Mar Thoma Syrian Church (6)
Mennonite (23)
Messianic Judaism@
Methodist (16)
Moravian Church (3)
Nation of Yahweh (1)
New Frontiers International (1)
Old Catholic Church@
Orthodox (84)
Orthodox Church in America@
Orthodox Presbyterian (2)
Pentecostal (23)
Plymouth Brethren (4)
Presbyterian (70)
Presbyterian Church (USA) (15)
Presbyterian Church in America (7)
Primitive Baptist (3)
Protestant Reformed Church (6)
Reformed (13)
Reformed Baptist (7)
Reformed Church in America (3)
Reformed Church in the United States (1)
Reformed Churches of Australia@
Reformed Episcopal Church@
Reformed Presbyterian Church (5)
Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (4)
Revival Centres International (2)
Romanian Orthodox@
Rosicrucian@
Russian Orthodox@
Serbian Orthodox@
Seventh Day Baptist (3)
Seventh-Day Adventist (45)
Shaker (9)
Society of Friends (37)
Southern Baptist Convention (14)
Spiritist (2)
Syrian Orthodox@
True and Living Church of Jesus Christ of Saints of the Last Days (2)
Two-by-Twos (3)
Unification Church (9)
Unitarian-Universalism@
United Church of Canada@
United Church of Christ (13)
United Church of God (3)
United Free Church of Scotland@
United Methodist Church (97)
United Reformed Church (1)
Uniting Church in Australia@
Unity Church (2)
Unity Fellowship Church (1)
Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches (1)
Virtual Churches (12)
Waldensian Church (3)
Way International, The (3)
Web Directories (7)
Wesleyan (9)
Wesleyan Methodist@
Worldwide Church of God (5)

...and the second command, DON'T build great towers of vanity or great statues or things of vanity and status in my name. Let the church be wherever you happen to be standing, let my WORD and the WORD ALONE be the church:



How on earth did we go from this?...


To this?...


I let these two examples stand for themselves. It would SEEM, in conclusion.....that mankind has not yet caught up to the wisdom of what Jesus was trying to teach us. This was a huge factor in my becoming an Atheist, an Atheist who still yet recognizes the wisdom of Jesus. Thanks for reading.

[rincewind209]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

Can you objectively and factually prove that God does not exist?

Of course not. But not being able to prove it does not prove he does exist. You are here now due to a staggering good fortune that enabled an unbroken genetic line, spanning two and a half billion years. Our task is to enable the continued success of our line. That should be wonderful enough for you. Hoping for an afterlife is pretty sad, depending on it is hopeless.

[cicciobuki]

About proving that god doesn't exist, what will religious people accept as evidence?

[Baranovich]

Originally Posted by darthwiggum2000

But there's no verifiable evidence that life exists on other planets, space aliens and such, yet plenty of people believe in it.

The reason why people don't believe in mermaids is because mermaids are supposed to live in the oceans -- but there are no mermaids in the oceans. It is absolutely verifiable.

Wow....woaaaah.....hang on just one second. Really need to help clarify this one.

You are confusing and twisting the true meaning of the word "verifiable".

Actually, your first sentence is incorrect, if you want to know. Why? Because the existence of life on other planets IS VERIFIED and HAS BEEN verified. How you say? Because of the simple science of mathematical odds. One must be VERY careful to distinguish between the sensationalism that exists on our tiny planet, with the claims of alien sitings, pieces of UFO's being supposedly found that turn out to be nothing but weather balloons, people writing books claiming to have been abducted by aliens, etc. etc....

BUT - that narrow, cultural phenomenon that we throw around down here on earth is quite disconnected from the NEAR MATHEMATICAL CERTAINTY that, because of the number of stars that exist, the number of galaxies that exist, and the number of solar systems that exists, it IS and HAS BEEN calculated by scientists that a certain number of planets out there(in fact if I remember correctly, they calculate the number of habitable planets that probably had or have life on them right at this moment to be in the millions), a certain number of planets out there MUST have life on them, just by the nature of the way life starts.

So I'm sorry, to make a linear statement like, "well nobody here on earth has ever met an alien or been on board a spaceship", that sentence has NO bearing on mathematical science.

NOW, to correct your statement, it IS accurate to say that "we don't know what other life might look like, we don't know what form or shape it has taken, that is an unknown." In that regard you would be correct. We can't verify what exactly that other life is and to what stage it has developed.

But science and math and the fundamental laws of Odds have PROVEN that YES, other life IS out there.

If I may come across as a bit condescending for a moment, but I'm sorry, it is not good enough to "believe" or "not believe" in life on other planets. That's not a complete answer. I do not "believe" that life exists on other planets....I ASSERT that in all likelihood, based on mathematical odds, that life DOES exist on other planets.

That is quite a different mindset that merely looking up at the sky and saying I "believe" other life is out there. That kind of simple thing should be reserved for how you want to feel in your heart about Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny.

In my heart I "BELIEVE IN" Hobbits because I love Lord of the Rings. But I know that Tolkien's Middle Earth is fiction. I carry my belief of them in my heart, but that's as far as it goes. I wish people could distinguish the difference.

[Baranovich]

Originally Posted by cicciobuki

About proving that god doesn't exist, what will religious people accept as evidence?

You make a really excellent point, and a really central point too!

For many people of faith, there is no evidence you could show them that would convince them otherwise. They would simply throw back at you the classic religious claim that the definitive scientific evidence that was discovered was all part of "the Devil's grand plan" to deceive us. They could simply say that the scientists themselves are actually demons that were planted here by the Devil to deceive us and steer us away from "the truth". I mean they can make it go in circles forever.

More terrifyingly, I've actually heard people of faith say these sorts of things, and say them with all seriousness.

Once someone is entrenched in faith, all they need to do to counter you is to say, "this is all part of God's plan that people would be deceived by science".... and once you reach that point, the conversation is over.

One can use the "God's plan" reason to counter ANYTHING.

[AmateurEmale]

I am from a "Christian" family, even though many of them don't go to church or pray regularly; they are people who nevertheless believe in "Christian" concepts such as the Ten Commandments, Christ dying so sins (or perhaps Original Sin) could be forgiven, etc.

But I personally don't understand, having been exposed to Catholic and Fundamentalist people who use the Bible as justification for their right-wing ideology, how anyone could be a Christian and also be able to defend birth control, abortion choice, pornography, or even U.S. capitalism, considering that Jesus sacrificed his wealth to other people.

That is why I decided about twenty years ago to be agnostic and/or irreligious. If not an absolute atheist, I do not pray, communicate with God, go to church, worry about whether I will go to a lake of fire when I die, or worry about the future of my soul after I peruse anything here at VEF. I am a secular, capitalist, libertarian.

[Baranovich]

Originally Posted by Meini Hirion

Does your term "Atheist" refer, as in the Huxley era of "bohemian culture" to a CHRISTIAN God ?
Or does it include a Muslim, Sikh, Bhuddist..even a voodoo GOD ?
Does "Atheism" mean "anti-Any-God" ?

That last thing you said. No, Atheism does not mean "anti-any God". That phrase irks me. Because it implies that we are "against God", or "in opposition to God."

Being an Atheist is not being against God! How can I be against something I don't acknowledge even exists in the first place? To define an Atheist as "anti-God" is to imply that God exists but we are just too stubborn to accept it.

Uh uh. Nope. Here is the untarnished, plain, straight-up definition of Atheism:

The absence of belief in any theistic god or higher power/being. The absence of belief in any religious text which references an immortal being(messiah), or immortal God.

I make a point here to note the importance of the word ABSENCE. Far too many religious people incorrectly define Atheism as being a belief system unto itself. It is NOT. People seem to have a very, very, very difficult time wrapping their heads around the "absence of belief". And yet it's really quite simple.

Since being born, I have grown up into a world in which I have discovered that billions of people follow this thing known as religious doctrine which includes a belief in a higher power that they call their God. I have learned that billions of people profess to believing it with all their heart.

And in this observation of the world, I simply as an Atheist chose to not take part. I chose to not be a part of that billions of people who believe in the outer-world of an all-knowing, all-powerful being. And I chose to not take part in the associated belief that we have souls and that we carry on afterwards.

Not believing in something, not acknowledging the existence of something, does NOT mean you are AGAINST it. It simply means you don't think it's there in the first place.

Big difference.

[howerd]

Originally Posted by darthwiggum2000

So in other words, you're moving the goal post from "scientifically verifiable" to "plausibly supportable."

And by the way, what you personally deem "plausible" may not be universally shared by others. In the same way you conclude that life on earth makes life elsewhere plausible, people of faith stake equal claim that our existence IS the concrete evidence of God's existence.

Naturally, you reject their conclusion -- just as they reject yours.

See how pointless this is?

No, you are conflating what can be postulated due to verifiable evidence (in this example the universe contains life on ONE planet: it's called 'Earth' -heard of it?) with 'Howard's opinion on what's plausible'. Sure I do find the idea that life elsewhere in the universe is plausible but not because I'm arrogantly asserting my opinion trumps the opinions of people who disagree with me, it's because there's independently verifiable evidence that life can exist in our universe -it's called human life. Notice I didn't say I'm certain life can exist elsewhere in the universe because I cannot give any verifiable evidence for this assertion. Now can you provide a shred of verifiable evidence that some immaterial being exists? I bet you can't. You'll probably attempt to shift your burden of evidence on to my shoulders because you cannot support your assertion with anything verifiable. Remember I'm not saying there definitely isn't a god, as far as I'm concerned there may be lots of them - I'm simply saying there's absolutely no good verifiable reason to believe any exist. So if I'm wrong why am I wrong?

[SanteeFats]

Originally Posted by cicciobuki

About proving that god doesn't exist, what will religious people accept as evidence?

What will atheists accept as proof He does exist. It works both ways.

[DTravel]

Originally Posted by Meini Hirion

NO.

I'm not even an agnostic.

I'm not a churchgoer, fundamentalist, born-again etc.

Perhaps it's a weakness in one's character, that in times of adversity we deny ourselves and seek supernatural help ?

That will cut across all religions won't it ?

Even Zen has the opt-out clause.

I believe in God.

Does your term "Atheist" refer, as in the Huxley era of "bohemian culture" to a CHRISTIAN God ?
Or does it include a Muslim, Sikh, Bhuddist..even a voodoo GOD ?
Does "Atheism" mean "anti-Any-God" ?

Agnosticism is one reasoned path, but Atheism seems pretty hard-boiled hatred to me.

Live and Let Live, agree or dis-agree

In the western world, for most times, "A God-Belief" is not a required status, in these days of choice.

So why and more importantly, WHAT, is ATHEISM ?

Sorry, we've already been told in this thread we're not allowed to be agnostics instead of atheists. They want us all grouped together in a small area so we can more easily be shot at.