Communism. Good or bad. What do you really know about Communism?

[Estreeter]

Originally Posted by bowlinggreen

It just goes to show that the best Communism can do is make everyone poor and miserable, and make people go away for good if they are so brash as to point out that fact.

There was also a run in with my parents at my grandparents house when we went there for a holiday, but as Aussie citizens and being a moderate state, hey I'm fair, not much came of it.

True, there are those who lived under it and wish it were back, give it time and wait for their kids to benefit once a real wealth is built.

Communism don't make all people miserable, there are those who live in the west who haven't lived under it and it's hidden truths that have this romantic idea from reading books that it does work, as long as we're all equal

Originally Posted by bowlinggreen

What does xyzde69 have to say about unpersons who magically disappear from the Utopian commune, if they speak out?

He said that before, if you're not happy in one commune you just move to the next and it'll be the same

[haroldeye]

Not everyone bowlinggreen is poor and miserable. The Party members do well.

[Estreeter]

Originally Posted by haroldeye

Not everyone bowlinggreen is poor and miserable. The Party members do well.

Yeah, but if you read what the Commie defenders have written on here they'll say they weren't real communists and they made mistakes

[bowlinggreen]

Originally Posted by haroldeye

Not everyone bowlinggreen is poor and miserable. The Party members do well.

That is simply stating the obvious.

[Estreeter]

Originally Posted by bowlinggreen

That is simply stating the obvious.

[Roubignol]

Originally Posted by bowlinggreen

That is simply stating the obvious.

Here is a map of the American slums and ghettos.



43 millions Americans live under the line of poverty.

Originally Posted by Estreeter

These are pictures taken in the richest Capitalist country in the world.

Originally Posted by bowlinggreen

What does xyzde69 have to say about unpersons who magically disappear from the Utopian commune, if they speak out?

You only read the Estreeter point of view.

I've listened the opinion of a hard working Yugoslavian guy, escaping Yugoslavia because of the war and now telling that the country is HIGHLY corrupted.
According to him life under Tito was top, as long as you didn't involve in politics.

Estreeter hates so much politics, that he surely would have been extremely glad to live in Communist Yugoslavia.

[Brecht]

Originally Posted by Estreeter

Thought I did earlier in this thread, and yes it is both personal and a firm belief.
You know I rarely get involved in politics on this forum, except this one,



Somewhat,

I'll repeat the story, only in whole this time
My cousin who I never met, born 23 years before me, I'm told was a loud mouth by those who knew him, didn't know how to shut up. His Dad, my oldest uncle was shot and killed by the Partisans. Certain members of my family were Ustasa soldiers, that particular Uncle wasn't.

My cousin would often get drunk and start on his anti communist and anti Yugoslavia rants, usually in cafe's. He was warned by the state police and beaten badly while detained for a month. Once released he apparently quietened down a lot, and this is from what I'm told I'll add. Fast forward 3 years after behaving himself he wanted to attend a family members wedding but needed a passport, that was denied so he started again with his anti commie rants only this time he did something else. At a cafe again, ripped down a picture of Tito, placed it on the floor, got up on a table and pissed on it.
The next day he was paid a visit by the police, was taken away, never seen again though according to the police he was released Thats the actions of a moderate commie state.

That's my personal hatred of it.

My actual beliefs stem form that, it offers little in actual freedom when applied for real, xyzde stated that The Boss would laugh at some of my comments on here, true he probably wouldn't agree with some views, but reading his own words in his autobiography, he stood by the Berlin wall and called it an offence to humanity.

I like the idea that one can do what they like to make themselves a success and self reliant with hard work under capitalism. I could not care less if living 2 doors down from me was a billionaire and across the road someone living just above the poverty line.

Trust me on this, I'm all for the rich helping out those less fortunate, but Im dead against the rich bailing out the poor to make things equal, the way I look at it is if the rich always did that those who are poor might just want to rely on handouts, that I won't stand for, it offers nothing but a form welfare.

I'm sorry about your cousin and uncle. Thousands of families suffered losses during the war while entire families were wiped out. In the case of Yugoslavia, it was the Croatian Ustashe and the Serbian Chetniks who committed the worst crimes, with the support of Nazi Germany, Italy and the Nazi puppet state of Serbia ruled by General Milan Nedic. Yugoslavia was a largely agrarian country before the war. Most of the country was destroyed in the war and about a million Yugoslavs died, probably even more.

I can understand the anger and vindictiveness of the communists and those who fought as partisans. Most communists spent years in prison before the war when Yugoslavia was a monarchy and dictatorship ruled by a Serbian king. Then came the fascists and they ended up in prisons and death camps again. The partisans were bever treated like prisoners of war by the Ustashe but were slaughtered like animals. The crimes of the Ustashe against the civilian population, mostly Serbs, were so vicious, even the Germans complained.

The reason why I'm getting into this topic is that Bleiburg commemoration I mentioned in my previous post. It was a topic in Austrian media during the last couple of days. Croatian hardcore nationalists like to claim that the victims were innocent people, murdered by Tito's partisans just "because they were Croats". This is bullshit and every historian, even in the capitalist West, knows that. The Ustashe who were heading to Austria, fleeing from the partisans, were given an ultimatum by the Allies (of which the partisans were part of) to surrender until May the 7th, 1945. That's not what they did. It was only a couple of days later that they asked the British to be accepted as prisoners of war. The British commander rejected their request. Since they refused to surrender as demanded by the Allies, they could no longer claim the status of POWs and were to be treated as armed bandits. That's how the British commander argued, so he had them delivered to the Yugoslav partisans. Most of those Ustashe, Chetniks and other Nazi collaborators died during the subsequent march through Slovenia and Croatia. They died from exhaustion and hunger. Most survived and were sent home while some of those who were in the Ustashe from the very beginning (from 1941), and not just mobilized in the last year or two, were executed.

I guess it took many years for the wounds to heal after the war. In 1945, Yugoslavia was a devastated country, with a million dead, thousands of missing persons and wounded, yet the communists managed to rebuild their country and turn it into a modern industrial nation. The Yugoslavs enjoyed a high living standard. When Tito, a Croat himself btw, died in 1980, his funeral was the biggest state funeral and the biggest gathering of world leaders in history and remains so until this day. Even kings and princes came to his funeral which is astonishing, considering the fact that Tito was a communist leader. After the breakup of Yugoslavia in 1991, when Croatia went independent, decades of hard work were lost again and hundreds of thousands died. Franjo Tudjman, Croatia's president, died in 1999. No one came to his funeral except the president of Turkey I think. He was pretty much isolated in the last couple of years and considered a war criminal. If he hadn't died, he'd most likely end up before the Tribunal in The Hague.

Btw, Bruce Springsteen is neither a leftist or a commie. He's a liberal who believes the world's problem can be solved with charity. He should stick to music.

[Roubignol]

People who escaped communist countries often were fascists having lost the fight, but having enough wealth to escape.

Al contrario, it was impossible for communist losers to escape when fascist won, because they were poor and they often were executed.

Originally Posted by Brecht

After the breakup of Yugoslavia in 1991, when Croatia went independent, decades of hard work were lost again and hundreds of thousands died. Franjo Tudjman, Croatia's president, died in 1999. No one came to his funeral except the president of Turkey I think. He was pretty much isolated in the last couple of years and considered a war criminal. If he hadn't died, he'd most likely end up before the Tribunal in The Hague.

After the destruction of Yugoslavia, the raise of mafias became terrible.
As example the Albanese mafias that still are among the most dangerous mafias in the world.

Originally Posted by Brecht

Btw, Bruce Springsteen is neither a leftist or a commie. He's a liberal who believes the world's problem can be solved with charity. He should stick to music.

Even in music he could stop asap.

[Wendigo]

Originally Posted by xyzde69

You only read the Estreeter point of view.

I've listened the opinion of a hard working Yugoslavian guy, escaping Yugoslavia because of the war and now telling that the country is HIGHLY corrupted.
According to him life under Tito was top, as long as you didn't involve in politics.

So your answer to the question about what you think of all the disappearances and people being dragged away for disagreeing with the state under communism is that you talked to one person
Wow, I bow to your research on that oh great one.

I also remind you of this

Originally Posted by Wendigo

If it was such a fantastic place to live how come ordinary people were shot trying to leave.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...he_Berlin_Wall

Why were the people subject to controls as to what they could read or watch?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censor...n_East_Germany

Originally Posted by xyzde69

That's a point on which, I totally agree.
Honestly speaking, I never understood why these "Communist" countries didn't let their people immigrating to capitalist ones.
It would have been fair to let greedy people going to the lands of greed.

But I hope you will agree that the US imperialism has not to be defended too.

That's the point of view of Professor Jacquard.
Why Communist countries and Capitalist ones do not collaborate together.

If you want to live in Collectivism, you go to a collectivist country, if you want to live in a Capitalist one, you can immigrate there.
But there always were blocus from both parts.

That's one more time the demonstration that a real free world as defined by the Anarchists never existed.

Like a seasoned apologist you glossed over my point about people being killed for disagreeing with the state and you gave them a limp wristed rebuke as you assumed all those that wanted to leave were just greedy.

Originally Posted by xyzde69

People who escaped communist countries often were fascists having lost the fight, but having enough wealth to escape.

It may surprise you that not every one shot trying to leave Berlin was either a fascist or greedy, most were just ordinary people unhappy with life under communism.

You really are a narrow minded blinkered puppet. Debating with you is like chiselling blancmange as your views alter every time the wind changes direction

[Roubignol]

Originally Posted by Wendigo

So your answer to the question about what you think of all the disappearances and people being dragged away for disagreeing with the state under communism is that you talked to one person .....

You really are a narrow minded blinkered puppet. Debating with you is like chiselling blancmange as your views alter every time the wind changes direction

I don't have to comment about the Estreeter's cousin. I don't know all the parameters.

I've watched an ARTE documentary about Italian fascism and saw how Italian farmers who wanted to live under communism, because they were hardly exploited, were persecuted by fascist politicians and even fascist farmers.
They couldn't escape because they were poor. They were exterminated.

This is a fact, when rich people can't exploit poor ones, they call the police or the army and beat them, hunt them, kill them.
Because rich people are lazy and selfish.