The Second World War.

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by Dr Pepper

Well a lot of legal minds dispute that-and you can see that in the wiki entry. The issue seems mainly about the charge of treason-and whether his activities fell within that-as distinct from 'giving solace and support to the kings enemies'

Joyce was a lifelong fascist-and at least consistent in his beliefs and outlooks.In comparison his fellow traveller John Amery-who was also convicted of treason-actively recruited (with very limited success) personnel to fight for the Axis....and in my mind a greater traitor.

I am also cognizant that Eamon de Valera only escaped a British firing squad by dint of his American birth after the 1916 Uprising-so there is a significant past precedent that was ignored in Joyce's case-because the UK was out to make an example of him.

Scoundrel-seeing you seem to have some strong opinions on this-what Treason act was Joyce prosecuted under- the 1351 Act or the 1945 one?

That aspect of his case is of academic interest only IMHO, but since you ask, I think his face fits. The 1351 Act definitions have been amended over the years and some liberalisation permitted. Even Hanging Judge Jeffreys argued against the original rule which forbade an accused man to have legal counsel - even he thought that was unjust. But Lord Haw Haw had a defence counsel.

The 1351 Treason Act includes within its definitions:

• Levying war against the sovereign in the realm.
• Adhering to the sovereign's enemies, giving them aid and comfort, in the realm or elsewhere.

These definitions haven't been repealed. They fit dear old Lord Haw Haw perfectly.

[Reclaimedwg]

What's the difference between the SS, the SD (Sicherheitsdienst) and the Gestapo?

Which one had more overall carte blanche power and was most feared?

[Dr Pepper]

Originally Posted by wildtig2013

What's the difference between the SS, the SD (Sicherheitsdienst) and the Gestapo?

Which one had more overall carte blanche power and was most feared?

This is an area that still causes great confusion to people-I am no military historian (military technophile yes!!) but all three were effectively separate sections of the German Nazi government-and there were lots of links, interdepartmental cooperation and overlapping responsibilities.

The SS 'Schuttz Staffel' was originally Hitler's personal bodyguard of a few hundred-that over the years of the Nazi regime grew into a paramilitary force numbering several millions-and evolved into the Allegemeine SS-and the Waffen SS-the latter being purely military units with normal combat functions-but usually better equipped, better manned and with a very high degree of self confidence, elan and Nazi political indoctrination than the regular German army units; whilst the former provided both the internal security, intelligence, occupation and detention camp forces

The SD was effectively the intelligence service of the SS and Nazi party-so a department of the SS-and effectively parallel organisation to the Gestapo. the latter was the state secret police of the Nazi administration in Germany and the occupied territories....and eventually came under the control of the RHSA-the Reich security office-so ultimately Goering and Himmler at various stages. Both were rivals and empire builders-as were many of their senior underlings-so it is hard to say which had more power-it would depend on the specific area and location-which was more feared-again would depend on who you were and what you'd been up to-you wouldn't want to come to the attention of any of them!

The Wiki entry on the Gestapo is fairly comprehensive:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gestapo

Outside of Germany the Byzantine nature of the Nazi state apparatus was not well understood-which was brought out in the Nuremburg trials to the frequent embarassment and chagrin of the prosecutors.

There is a very large published literature out there post war on the SS which is being continually added to.

[Reclaimedwg]

I've seen a couple of World War II movies where the SD was feared by the SS and the Gestapo.

Can't remember the name of those movies now and I don't know if they were accurate.

[rupertramjet]

Originally Posted by wildtig2013

I've seen a couple of World War II movies where the SD was feared by the SS and the Gestapo.

Can't remember the name of those movies now and I don't know if they were accurate.

The SD were indeed feared by all, they were the inner section of both party and service, and truly had carte blanche in terms of there powers, they were answerable only to Himmler and therefore Hitler, and had the power to do as they wished. Summary execution to them was no more than lighting a cigarette and to have a hope of any sort of hearing if you fell foul of them you would need to be in the very inner circle of the top Nazis.

Even this would be fifty fifty, they rarely lost a casr, after all, Hitlers paranoia, gave them almost certain victory!

[Reclaimedwg]

Watching a 1957 movie about this guy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_von_Werra

Didn't know about him.

[Mal Hombre]

They made a film about Him with Hardy Kruger,The One That Got Away (1957)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_On...way_(1957_film)

[Reclaimedwg]

Yes. that's the movie I am watching right now.

What is a 12-50?

Some kind of ID or document that RAF airmen carry?

I didn't know you couldn't start a plane without a Trolley Acc:

https://www.largescaleplanes.com/walkaround/wk.php?wid=129

https://shortfinals.wordpress.com/2013/07/30/the-trolley-acc-an-indispensable-tool-of-ww2/

[Historian]

Originally Posted by wildtig2013

Yes. that's the movie I am watching right now.

What is a 12-50?

Some kind of ID or document that RAF airmen carry?

Yes, 'Form 1250' was the RAF airman's ID card

[Reclaimedwg]

He impersonated a Dutch pilot and the duty officer at the RAF aerodrome was asking him for his 12-50 and he talked himself out of it saying it was against order to carry it since he was on a bombing run the previous night.

He almost got away with a Hurricane MK II - just a couple of more minutes and he would had been airborne.







According to WIKI, that's a real Hurricane IIc and still in existence:

As of 2014, the Hawker Hurricane IIc (serial number LF363) is still in existence, flying with the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight.