Holocaust:True Or False ?

[otokonomidori]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

I really do not believe most holocaust deniers actually think the holocaust didn't happen. I think most of them are consciously and deliberately lying when they say it didn't happen. The physical evidence of the holocaust is overwhelming.

The man [ Big Harry was his name] who came into the 2nd hand bookshop I worked in who denied the holocaust was always citing this and that evidence that it didn't happen - he even gave me pamphlets which I didn't read, [there was so much porn in the shop that I'd no time for pamphlets]!

Anyway I am certain that Big Harry was utterly convinced that everything he was said was true - he had no doubt that the Allies concocted the Holocaust after the war in cahoots with what he called international Jewry.

I reckoned he was off his f*cking head.

[SanteeFats]

Something I stumbled over researching pogroms.The first pogrom in Nazi Germany was Kristallnacht, often called Pogromnacht, in which at least 91 Jews were killed, a further 30,000 arrested and incarcerated in concentration camps,[26] over 1,000 synagogues burned, and over 7,000 Jewish businesses destroyed or damaged.[27][28]
During World War II, the Nazis also encouraged pogroms by local populations, especially early in the war before the larger mass killings began, for two reasons: first, every Jew killed by locals meant one fewer that would have to be killed by the Germans, and second, the pogroms helped make the local populations share responsibility for the killings.[29] One pogrom took place on 8 October 1939, carried out by the local Germans on the occasion of Joseph Goebbels's visit to Lodz.[30]
A number of pogroms occurred during the Holocaust at the hands of non-Germans. Perhaps the deadliest of these Holocaust-era pogroms was the Iaşi pogrom in Romania, in which as many as 13,266 Jews were killed by Romanian citizens, police, and military officials.[31]

[Puhbear69]

Originally Posted by SanteeFats

Something I stumbled over researching pogroms.The first pogrom in Nazi Germany was Kristallnacht, often called Pogromnacht, in which at least 91 Jews were killed, a further 30,000 arrested and incarcerated in concentration camps,[26] over 1,000 synagogues burned, and over 7,000 Jewish businesses destroyed or damaged.[27][28]
During World War II, the Nazis also encouraged pogroms by local populations, especially early in the war before the larger mass killings began, for two reasons: first, every Jew killed by locals meant one fewer that would have to be killed by the Germans, and second, the pogroms helped make the local populations share responsibility for the killings.[29] One pogrom took place on 8 October 1939, carried out by the local Germans on the occasion of Joseph Goebbels's visit to Lodz.[30]
A number of pogroms occurred during the Holocaust at the hands of non-Germans. Perhaps the deadliest of these Holocaust-era pogroms was the Iaşi pogrom in Romania, in which as many as 13,266 Jews were killed by Romanian citizens, police, and military officials.[31]

This argument sounds quite bizarrely to me.

Those pogroms against the Jews took place in nearly every European country during the centuries. But those pogroms were more or less of local character. Have a look to "Nobody1's" post of the Russian pogroms.
So the pogroms or the turnouts of Jewish people wasn't clearly "invention" of the Nazis. What the Nazis did, they "industrialized" (what a word! ) the killing of Jews during the Holocaust.

What I want to say, there was latent hatred (sometimes more, sometimes less) over the centuries all over Europe, but the outbreak of the hatred had been more or less local issues and was very limited.
For the reason of those local issues I'm having absolute no idea.

And what turned the people (I mean >1933; and the Nazis) into that hatred against the Jews I'm having no idea too. One strong argument might be the 'bad capitalist picture', was occurring during that time in the 19th century. That was owed in the luck missing rules in legislation in general and missing rules in the social legislation in special at this time.

One argument is missing in that thread too, I think at first (1933 to the outbreak of WWII) the Nazis had more the interests getting rid of the Jews than to kill them (not 100% sure in this point). A great number of them could flew (with a wink) or were deported to foreign countries like Switzerland or France, also to Palestine. Later they traveled to the US, or England. But those countries had no interests, of immigration mostly German Jews in such masses and send them back.

Not even in Palestine they were happy about it, not the British occupiers, not even the two - one wouldn't believe it - mainly Jewish terror groups, later founded Israel. They worked together with the German Nazis . "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" comes into my mind to this. :head-shaking:

[SanteeFats]

Originally Posted by Puhbear69

Those pogroms against the Jews took place in nearly every European country during the centuries. But those pogroms were more or less of local character. Have a look to "Nobody1's" post of the Russian pogroms.
So the pogroms or the turnouts of Jewish people wasn't clearly "invention" of the Nazis. What the Nazis did, they "industrialized" (what a word! ) the killing of Jews during the Holocaust.

What I want to say, there was latent hatred (sometimes more, sometimes less) over the centuries all over Europe, but the outbreak of the hatred had been more or less local issues and was very limited.
For the reason of those local issues I'm having absolute no idea.

And what turned the people (I mean >1933; and the Nazis) into that hatred against the Jews I'm having no idea too. One strong argument might be the 'bad capitalist picture', was occurring during that time in the 19th century. That was owed in the luck missing rules in legislation in general and missing rules in the social legislation in special at this time.

One argument is missing in that thread too, I think at first (1933 to the outbreak of WWII) the Nazis had more the interests getting rid of the Jews than to kill them (not 100% sure in this point). A great number of them could flew (with a wink) or were deported to foreign countries like Switzerland or France, also to Palestine. Later they traveled to the US, or England. But those countries had no interests, of immigration mostly German Jews in such masses and send them back.

Not even in Palestine they were happy about it, not the British occupiers, not even the two - one wouldn't believe it - mainly Jewish terror groups, later founded Israel. They worked together with the German Nazis . "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" comes into my mind to this. :head-shaking:

Puhbear I was never trying to imply that the Nazi's invented Jewish persecution. There were many pogroms over the centuries as you state. Some local and some engineered by those in debt to the Jews. Money lending was forbidden to Christian's so any noble or merchant needing money went to a Jew for the money. So at times when their debt got to big they would incite Jewish hate and the men they owed money too would end up dead.
The Nazi hatred seems to stem from Hitler. His hatred is thought to have resulted because a Jewish doctor failed to save his mother.
In the early years as Hitler and his Nazi's were coming to power a lot of Jews who could see the writing on the wall either fled or at least sent kith and kin away.
You are right about the Palestine. Before the creation of the State of Israel the Jews in Palestine used pretty much the same tactics they are now fighting. Maybe that is one reason the Israelis fight Hamas so well and ruthlessly.

[Puhbear69]

Originally Posted by SanteeFats

Puhbear I was never trying to imply that the Nazi's invented Jewish persecution. There were many pogroms over the centuries as you state. Some local and some engineered by those in debt to the Jews. Money lending was forbidden to Christian's so any noble or merchant needing money went to a Jew for the money. So at times when their debt got to big they would incite Jewish hate and the men they owed money too would end up dead.
The Nazi hatred seems to stem from Hitler. His hatred is thought to have resulted because a Jewish doctor failed to save his mother.
In the early years as Hitler and his Nazi's were coming to power a lot of Jews who could see the writing on the wall either fled or at least sent kith and kin away.
You are right about the Palestine. Before the creation of the State of Israel the Jews in Palestine used pretty much the same tactics they are now fighting. Maybe that is one reason the Israelis fight Hamas so well and ruthlessly.

Thats historically not correct !

In mid age in the towns mostly the rich traders were leaning money to small businesses and workman. And they did it with an interest.
Read of the "Fugger" or "De Medici" as the mightiest examples; they were Christians an not Jews.
But I think there is a trace of truce in your statement, if the for example
workman (not only one, but a number of) couldn't effort the debts any more.

In an earlier post I stated that Hitler was thankfully to the doctor (Eduard Bloch) who has treated his mother (Klara Hitler) very well; there was notmuch he could do at this time. Hitler wrote him later some letters, so it couldn't be the release.
After the annexation of Austria Bloch got - as Jew - a preferred treatment and emigrated 1940 !!! into the US, were he died in New York 1945-06-01.

Oh well, Hamas doesn't have any tanks, heavy artilleries, an airforce ect., ect.. Only rockets, like friends of mine and me build in a smaller version as teeny our selfs, and of course light arms. It's a big deal to fight them.

[scoundrel]

I don't know how things went in medieval Germany, and of course Cosimo de Medici was Catholic, although this didn't stop the Pope of the day from trying unsuccessfully to have him murdered. However, in medieval England, usury was considered a sin, and practising Christians were forbidden to do it. This meant that the quite small Jewish community of medieval England were the only money lenders in town. The massacre of the Jews of York in Clifford's Tower, the ruins of which still stand, was incited by local knights who were about to go off to join Richard I's crusade and who wanted to remove all records of their borrowings. It was a bit like how the Swiss banks tried to swindle the Holocaust survivors by shredding their bank records and saying they couldn't pay back the deposits and investments unless the holocaust survivors still had the bank books and paperwork after being fleeced by the Nazis for years. Plus ca change; plus la meme chose.

Cliffords Tower Today
http://www.historyofyork.org.uk/them...-1190-massacre

[Puhbear69]

The bank of "De Medici" was the the largest in Europe during the 15th century, seeing the Medici gain political power in Florence.

The Family produced four Popes themselves; Popes of the Catholic Church—Pope Leo X (1513–1521), Pope Clement VII (1523–1534), Pope Pius IV (1559–1565), and Pope Leo XI (1605); two regent queens of France—Catherine de' Medici (1547–1559) and Marie de' Medici (1600–1610); and, in 1531, the family became hereditary Dukes of Florence.

The Fugger family became even richer, alongside the Welser family, the family controlled much of the European economy in the sixteenth century and accumulated enormous wealth. This banking family replaced the de' Medici family, who influenced all of Europe during the Renaissance. The Fuggers took over many of the Medicis' assets and their political power and influence.

The Family was held more in the background of politics (opposite to the Family De Medici) so they financed several "Holy Roman Emporer".

-----------------------------

Look,
big towns in mid age were Paris with ~100.000 citizens, Milan and London with ~80.000, Florence and Prague had about ~50.000. Cologne had ~40.000. That would make the towns at modern standards a small town to a "dulls-ville".

Most towns (today known) in mid age were even smaller, so about 2.000 to 3.000 citizens.

So about a little less 1% of the total citizens here were Jews. That would make in a "big town" like Cologne was in mid age about 400; in the other towns in average 20 .. 30.
But they doesn't all lent money, there were bakeries needed, butchers for kosher meet, writer and stonemasons for example. Jobs, one can effort the life, but not getting rich (talking of mid age). So the number of rich Jews, who could effort leaning money to others seems to be very limited to me.

Nevertheless, those who lent money did it for horrific high interests, I've read of 45 .. 65 % p.a.; invoiced was every week. Those usury interests was allowed by the city council.
Of course, a pay back for a workman or a small business was nearly impossible, as you can believe.

.

[SanteeFats]

Originally Posted by Puhbear69

Thats historically not correct !
But I think there is a trace of truce in your statement, if the for example
workman (not only one, but a number of) couldn't effort the debts any more.

In an earlier post I stated that Hitler was thankfully to the doctor (Eduard Bloch) who has treated his mother (Klara Hitler) very well; there was notmuch he could do at this time. Hitler wrote him later some letters, so it couldn't be the release.
After the annexation of Austria Bloch got - as Jew - a preferred treatment and emigrated 1940 !!! into the US, were he died in New York 1945-06-01.

Oh well, Hamas doesn't have any tanks, heavy artilleries, an airforce ect., ect.. Only rockets, like friends of mine and me build in a smaller version as teeny our selfs, and of course light arms. It's a big deal to fight them.

Well here is a little support for my previous post.
King Edward I who, final realizing he could wring no more money out of the Jews, expelled them from England. It was the handy ultimate way to cancel his debts.
He was not the first to use this tactic. Ransacking of the Jews’ street – which of course offered a good possibility of destroying their fiscal records – was practiced by the Londoners repeatedly, most notably when they burnt the whole street to cinders in 1264.

You are right about Hitler and the Jews, I was wrong. Here is something about it. Did Hitler invent hatred of Jews? No, Hitler built on and used anti-Semitic ideas that already existed. He was Austrian and grew up in Vienna where the mayor was extremely anti-Semitic and where hatred of Jews was widespread. His hatred of Jews cannot be tied down to a specific event in his life, for example a Jewish childhood friend, as many children think.

[Wendigo]

Historically the Jewish people have managed to make money by lending, there is nothing wrong with that. Islam apparently forbids charging interest and the Catholic church outlawed usury at one stage so the rich Jewish bankers and businessmen filled a need at that time.
It wasn't just limited to them, look at the Knights Templar who were devout Christian knights who went to the Middle East to protect pilgrims but over a few hundred years became a leading source of finance to many leaders. King Philip IV of France was responsible for the execution of many of the Templars including their Grand Master Jacques de Molay and was it just coincidence that he was in debt with them and again what better way of avoiding paying than killing the lender.

The roots of anti-Semitism are long and they have always been an easy scapegoat when one was required.

To this day it just seems astounding that the allies were not aware of what was going on and that more strategic bombing missions to destroy the infrastructure that fed the concentration camps like railways wasn't undertaken. Maybe they knew something was going on but had no idea of the scale or how twisted the Nazi inspired hatred had become.
The German leaders at that time found perfect ideological allies with their even more vicious allies in Japan.

[Mal Hombre]

Originally Posted by Wendigo

The German leaders at that time found perfect ideological allies with their even more vicious allies in Japan.

The weird thing is that the Japanese,Like most oriental peoples,had no comprehension of Antisemitism.The Germans urged them to persecute and murder Jews in the territories they had conquered but They saw no reason to.