Digitizing 8mm

**lmcgillet** · March 16th, 2008, 12:10 PM

Hi all!

I have started digitizing 8mm loops with a camcorder a week ago, but the results don't really satisfy me yet.

My main problems:
- luminance goes periodically up and down over a few seconds, probably caused by fps-differences between the projector and the camcorder
- my editing software needs 10 hours or so to rerender and compress a 6 minute clip

That's what I did:
- back projection via a daylight screen including a mirror
- projection at 24 fps
- manual focus and white balance on the camcorder
- exposure time 1/25 second
- darkened room
- ULead Video Studio 11 (Virtual Dub refuses to recognize the streamed .avis as movies)

Overall picture quality is pretty ok, including overall luminance, colors and contrast. There are no hotspot problems (the camcorder is mounted 2 meters away from the daylight screen).

If anyone of you has experiences and good advice for my purpose, please share it with me and us.

Thank you in advance and Greetings -
Luther

troytempest77 · March 16th, 2008, 01:16 PM

I 'videod' the output from a Bell & Howell onto a standard project screen and got acceptable results. Auto Focus and white balance where switched off.

Regarding render time. It depends on your PC. I have a P4 3.4GHz pc with 1Gb of RAM. This takes approximately double the length of the video to render. EG 1 hours video takes 2 hours. However, I used Sony Vegas Movie Studio. Also if you add any effect (white balance, zoom etc.) it will increase rendering time considerably.

**lmcgillet** · March 16th, 2008, 04:29 PM

Thank you! I have a P4 with 3GHZ and 2Gb of RAM, but used indeed several filters and also cropping and resizing. I feel the ULead software isn't too good (it came as a goodie with the graphics card, as far as I remember).

Greetings -
Luther

DubSalute · March 16th, 2008, 07:38 PM

Perhaps Avidemux is usefull Luther, very much like VirtualDub but some things it does better, its also freeware. Probably you will need to store the .avi first on your harddisk.

Has built in codecs and the 2.4.1 ZIP (non install) version only needs to be unzipped to a folder to give it a try by clicking on avidemux2_gtk.exe or avidemux2_qt4.exe (GTK and the QT4 version).

Info and download links:
http://vintage-erotica-forum.com/sho...0&postcount=83

**lmcgillet** · March 16th, 2008, 07:53 PM

***Thank you***, Dub! Tried Avidemux, and it works like a charm!

Greetings -
Luther

**DARPA** · November 27th, 2009, 12:14 AM

I'm in a quandry. Back when I was scanning (1999-2004) I was occasionally picking off 8mm loops because they sometimes had images on the boxes not available in any film review mag and since I wanted my scan sets to include all available images I would get into bidding wars on eBay just to get those images (which is why you'll occasionally find my scan set filenames use letters after the numbers as I would add to previously posted scan sets).

Additionally, I was grabbing loops for certain Golden Age stars that never made it to VHS. They wouldn't be the full length versions that would have been seen if they had actually been ported to VHS, due to the restrictions of the small 8mm loop format. But it was better than nothing at all.

But I was also interested in seeing if I could scan the 8mm frames themselves. The reason was capping VHS versions of the loops would result in a loss of detail due the inherent image downgrading that occurs as the result of the VHS format and sometimes the loops on VHS were not the best quality possible whereas the 8mm films in my posession were in better shape.

However, after waiting a number of years for scanners to get a high enough DPI level to do what I wanted them to do, I ran some tests and discovered that the 8mm format was ill suited for this task. To be blunt, 8mm just doesn't have enough detail in the image. Any frame scan I generated would wind up being blurry and small; about 320x240 was the biggest I could muster after scanning it much much larger and trying to fix it in Photoshop. I suspect 16mm loops might work but those are extremely hard to come by.

So, being stymied with scanning frames, that left the other reason to get these loops, porting them to video. The intention always was to pet some of these loops, none of which has been posted or referenced here or anywhere else in any form, converted.

However, while I do have the video camera to do the job, I don't have the projector. And I'm not sure I have the right capture software to do the job. I have Premiere Pro and, of course, Windows Movie Maker but I don't know if either are well suited for the job. Both tend to put out very fat files - especially Premiere Pro, much fatter than the ones I've been downloading off of rapidshare. And having been "out of the game" for 5 years, I don't really have the drive I used to.

So I'm throwing out a question...is anyone here set up to convert 8mm films to video? The number of loops is just a handful really. If I don't end up buying a projector, I would be willing to ship the loops to a member in good standing just so that these can finally be seen. The recipient would be free to sell the loops after that.

I need to get this done. I have a feeling if it doesn't happen soon, it'll never happen.

Smallmouth · November 27th, 2009, 06:11 AM

To add to DARPA's question... can anyone recommend a reliable company that handles adult 8mm-to-DVD transfers in the US? Thanks in advance.

**bygoneguy** · November 27th, 2009, 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DARPA

I'm in a quandry. Back when I was scanning (1999-2004) I was occasionally picking off 8mm loops because they sometimes had images on the boxes not available in any film review mag and since I wanted my scan sets to include all available images I would get into bidding wars on eBay just to get those images (which is why you'll occasionally find my scan set filenames use letters after the numbers as I would add to previously posted scan sets).

Additionally, I was grabbing loops for certain Golden Age stars that never made it to VHS. They wouldn't be the full length versions that would have been seen if they had actually been ported to VHS, due to the restrictions of the small 8mm loop format. But it was better than nothing at all.

But I was also interested in seeing if I could scan the 8mm frames themselves. The reason was capping VHS versions of the loops would result in a loss of detail due the inherent image downgrading that occurs as the result of the VHS format and sometimes the loops on VHS were not the best quality possible whereas the 8mm films in my posession were in better shape.

However, after waiting a number of years for scanners to get a high enough DPI level to do what I wanted them to do, I ran some tests and discovered that the 8mm format was ill suited for this task. To be blunt, 8mm just doesn't have enough detail in the image. Any frame scan I generated would wind up being blurry and small; about 320x240 was the biggest I could muster after scanning it much much larger and trying to fix it in Photoshop. I suspect 16mm loops might work but those are extremely hard to come by.

So, being stymied with scanning frames, that left the other reason to get these loops, porting them to video. The intention always was to pet some of these loops, none of which has been posted or referenced here or anywhere else in any form, converted.

However, while I do have the video camera to do the job, I don't have the projector. And I'm not sure I have the right capture software to do the job. I have Premiere Pro and, of course, Windows Movie Maker but I don't know if either are well suited for the job. Both tend to put out very fat files - especially Premiere Pro, much fatter than the ones I've been downloading off of rapidshare. And having been "out of the game" for 5 years, I don't really have the drive I used to.

So I'm throwing out a question...is anyone here set up to convert 8mm films to video? The number of loops is just a handful really. If I don't end up buying a projector, I would be willing to ship the loops to a member in good standing just so that these can finally be seen. The recipient would be free to sell the loops after that.

I need to get this done. I have a feeling if it doesn't happen soon, it'll never happen.

Hi DARPA,

I could transfer them for you.

My setup uses a 750 TVL (TV lines of resolution - most digital camcorders are 500-550) 3CCD broadcast grade camera that films straight of the emulsion side of the film through an enlarged gate on the projector. It scans the film frame-by-frame @8fps. It doesn't captured a 'projected' or 'aerial' image.

It is a Workprinter from Moviestuff, see http://www.moviestuff.tv/wp_xp.html and about 3K worth of camera, lenses and capture devices. Really this setup is the best you can get next Rank Transfers on pro telecine equipment and those machines cost 100-200K and transfers done on them will set you back hundreds per film.

Take a look at this post which was done with my new setup.

http://www.vintage-erotica-forum.com...1&postcount=51

I have done some better transfers since and if you are interested PM and I'll send some hi-res screen grabs. But there is an old saying though crap in crap out and I am only capable of producing good results if the film is in decent shape.

Unfortunately I am in Australia, but the upside is will I transfer rare films for free if you send them to me. The free offer is only for rare stuff though - I will NOT transfer for free widely available series like Collection, Diamond, Golden Girls, Limited Edition, Pleasure Productions and Pretty Girls etc.

Regards, -bg

**bygoneguy** · November 27th, 2009, 09:20 AM

With regards your issue of individually 'scanning' 8mm film frames you are right, there just isn't much area to work with.

For 8mm the area size is 64, for 16mm it is 265 and for 35mm which most scanning products on the market support the area is a massive 1225. Most products on the market supports slides and film frames that are much larger.

I want do some scanning myself. Quite often I end up with many versions of a film, and even after I transfer some films I would be happy to trash them in order to get some hi-res stills from the film.

There is a Nikon CoolScan 8mm Film Adapter / Holder for the Nikon CoolScan range of film scanners see the link below. I am probably going to invest in one next year but I am skeptical as to just what I can expect to get from a small frame of 8mm film. Stuff I have seen from 35mm is stunning, and 16mm not bad either but 8mm I just don't know.

Would love to see some samples from this product for 8mm. Maybe there are some floating around other non adult forums.

Nikon CoolScan 8mm Film Adapter / Holder
http://filmscanusa.com/cs-cart/index...oduct_id=29783

P.S. just to add to my my original post and to be clearer, 750 TVL is also referred as 'Horizontal Lines' of resolution. As I mentioned most digital camcorders can support 500-550.

VHS horizontal resolution is 240-250 lines, and S-VHS is 400 lines. Regardless of what quality the camera was capturing the transfer, if the first medium is VHS tape even S-VHS then the horizontal resolution will immediately be lower. In the pre-digital age stuff was put to Beta-SP masters and if they survived they are a good source, but VHS tapes made from these masters is usually all we see. You can tell when someone has found an SP master and has converted it to DVD. You will still see analog noise but the image is much sharper.

VHS is roughly equivalent to 333x480 pixels. S-VHS improved the luminance resolution to 400 horizontal per picture height (versus 250 for VHS/Beta and 500 for DVD).

When I capture, the RAW digital files are massive (6GB for a 200' 8 minute film) . I actually have to "downgrade" the resolution (from 700 to 500 lines) to make DVD. This makes for a sharp image. I could actually upscale the transfers to Hi-Def and they wouldn't look that bad.

DubSalute · November 27th, 2009, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DARPA

However, while I do have the video camera to do the job, I don't have the projector. And I'm not sure I have the right capture software to do the job. I have Premiere Pro and, of course, Windows Movie Maker but I don't know if either are well suited for the job. Both tend to put out very fat files - especially Premiere Pro, much fatter than the ones I've been downloading off of rapidshare. And having been "out of the game" for 5 years, I don't really have the drive I used to.

So I'm throwing out a question...is anyone here set up to convert 8mm films to video? The number of loops is just a handful really. If I don't end up buying a projector, I would be willing to ship the loops to a member in good standing just so that these can finally be seen. The recipient would be free to sell the loops after that.

I need to get this done. I have a feeling if it doesn't happen soon, it'll never happen.

With doing it yourself you will end up probably investing more money then when you have it proffesionaly digitesed for you.

Not just any projector will do to get reasonable result filming the projected loops, you will need one that allows variable speed and it needs a reasonable lense.

Then the projector needs to match up with your video camera as when you can not match it up on shutter time (with help of variable speed projector) you end up with flickering image and a horizontal beam going over the image just like you sometimes see when a old TV got filmed or photographed.

With capturing 8mm at home with a camera this (imo) is in the better results range:
http://vintage-erotica-forum.com/t89...-for-sale.html
It was edited and had some color adjustments in Adobe Premiere, its not straight from capture to XviD thats posted. By example my camera tends to overexpose when going from dark to bright, those frames i then trim of to get a more equal image.

8mm has many imperfections standard, its indeed one of the less suited film types to get good captures from but when good quality 8mm you can get very acceptable results.

Best tool for the job in my book is a flashscan8:
http://www.mwa-nova.com/flashscan8.htm

But that will set you back for a refurbished second hand € 18.800,00 (thats without transport, tax and any additional costs

), i'm still dreaming but that probably will be all it gets for me.

You could however look if there is a good digitizing compagny in your surounding that offers scanning with that type of machine AND that will do adult content. Where i live (Europe) there is a compagny that offers 8mm captures for € 1,65 a minute with flashscan8, on top will still come some material and shipping costs, think for € 2,00 per minute could be all-in costs then, € 10 > 20 a loop ($ 15 > 30).

March 16th, 2008, 12:10 PM	#1
lmcgillet Former Staff Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 303 Thanks: 11,017 Thanked 4,123 Times in 198 Posts	Digitizing 8mm Hi all! I have started digitizing 8mm loops with a camcorder a week ago, but the results don't really satisfy me yet. My main problems: - luminance goes periodically up and down over a few seconds, probably caused by fps-differences between the projector and the camcorder - my editing software needs 10 hours or so to rerender and compress a 6 minute clip That's what I did: - back projection via a daylight screen including a mirror - projection at 24 fps - manual focus and white balance on the camcorder - exposure time 1/25 second - darkened room - ULead Video Studio 11 (Virtual Dub refuses to recognize the streamed .avis as movies) Overall picture quality is pretty ok, including overall luminance, colors and contrast. There are no hotspot problems (the camcorder is mounted 2 meters away from the daylight screen). If anyone of you has experiences and good advice for my purpose, please share it with me and us. Thank you in advance and Greetings - Luther

March 16th, 2008, 07:53 PM	#5
lmcgillet Former Staff Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 303 Thanks: 11,017 Thanked 4,123 Times in 198 Posts	*Thank you, Dub! Tried Avidemux, and it works like a charm! Greetings - Luther Last edited by lmcgillet; March 16th, 2008 at 09:16 PM..*

November 27th, 2009, 12:14 AM	#6
DARPA Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Trapped inside a scanner Posts: 3,509 Thanks: 4,344 Thanked 62,214 Times in 3,419 Posts	Looking to get some 8mm loops digitized... I'm in a quandry. Back when I was scanning (1999-2004) I was occasionally picking off 8mm loops because they sometimes had images on the boxes not available in any film review mag and since I wanted my scan sets to include all available images I would get into bidding wars on eBay just to get those images (which is why you'll occasionally find my scan set filenames use letters after the numbers as I would add to previously posted scan sets). Additionally, I was grabbing loops for certain Golden Age stars that never made it to VHS. They wouldn't be the full length versions that would have been seen if they had actually been ported to VHS, due to the restrictions of the small 8mm loop format. But it was better than nothing at all. But I was also interested in seeing if I could scan the 8mm frames themselves. The reason was capping VHS versions of the loops would result in a loss of detail due the inherent image downgrading that occurs as the result of the VHS format and sometimes the loops on VHS were not the best quality possible whereas the 8mm films in my posession were in better shape. However, after waiting a number of years for scanners to get a high enough DPI level to do what I wanted them to do, I ran some tests and discovered that the 8mm format was ill suited for this task. To be blunt, 8mm just doesn't have enough detail in the image. Any frame scan I generated would wind up being blurry and small; about 320x240 was the biggest I could muster after scanning it much much larger and trying to fix it in Photoshop. I suspect 16mm loops might work but those are extremely hard to come by. So, being stymied with scanning frames, that left the other reason to get these loops, porting them to video. The intention always was to pet some of these loops, none of which has been posted or referenced here or anywhere else in any form, converted. However, while I do have the video camera to do the job, I don't have the projector. And I'm not sure I have the right capture software to do the job. I have Premiere Pro and, of course, Windows Movie Maker but I don't know if either are well suited for the job. Both tend to put out very fat files - especially Premiere Pro, much fatter than the ones I've been downloading off of rapidshare. And having been "out of the game" for 5 years, I don't really have the drive I used to. So I'm throwing out a question...is anyone here set up to convert 8mm films to video? The number of loops is just a handful really. If I don't end up buying a projector, I would be willing to ship the loops to a member in good standing just so that these can finally be seen. The recipient would be free to sell the loops after that. I need to get this done. I have a feeling if it doesn't happen soon, it'll never happen.

November 27th, 2009, 09:20 AM	#9
bygoneguy Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 1,202 Thanks: 1,923 Thanked 49,436 Times in 1,163 Posts	With regards your issue of individually 'scanning' 8mm film frames you are right, there just isn't much area to work with. For 8mm the area size is 64, for 16mm it is 265 and for 35mm which most scanning products on the market support the area is a massive 1225. Most products on the market supports slides and film frames that are much larger. I want do some scanning myself. Quite often I end up with many versions of a film, and even after I transfer some films I would be happy to trash them in order to get some hi-res stills from the film. There is a Nikon CoolScan 8mm Film Adapter / Holder for the Nikon CoolScan range of film scanners see the link below. I am probably going to invest in one next year but I am skeptical as to just what I can expect to get from a small frame of 8mm film. Stuff I have seen from 35mm is stunning, and 16mm not bad either but 8mm I just don't know. Would love to see some samples from this product for 8mm. Maybe there are some floating around other non adult forums. Nikon CoolScan 8mm Film Adapter / Holder http://filmscanusa.com/cs-cart/index...oduct_id=29783 P.S. just to add to my my original post and to be clearer, 750 TVL is also referred as 'Horizontal Lines' of resolution. As I mentioned most digital camcorders can support 500-550. VHS horizontal resolution is 240-250 lines, and S-VHS is 400 lines. Regardless of what quality the camera was capturing the transfer, if the first medium is VHS tape even S-VHS then the horizontal resolution will immediately be lower. In the pre-digital age stuff was put to Beta-SP masters and if they survived they are a good source, but VHS tapes made from these masters is usually all we see. You can tell when someone has found an SP master and has converted it to DVD. You will still see analog noise but the image is much sharper. VHS is roughly equivalent to 333x480 pixels. S-VHS improved the luminance resolution to 400 horizontal per picture height (versus 250 for VHS/Beta and 500 for DVD). When I capture, the RAW digital files are massive (6GB for a 200' 8 minute film) . I actually have to "downgrade" the resolution (from 700 to 500 lines) to make DVD. This makes for a sharp image. I could actually upscale the transfers to Hi-Def and they wouldn't look that bad. __________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. I have updated my posts with better versions and most without a watermark see my To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. \| As in the past I am offering free 8mm/16mm film transfers for VEF members and will return the films by FedEx at my own expense Last edited by bygoneguy; November 27th, 2009 at 09:50 AM..

March 16th, 2008, 01:16 PM	#2
troytempest77 Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 98 Thanks: 2,963 Thanked 1,236 Times in 88 Posts	I 'videod' the output from a Bell & Howell onto a standard project screen and got acceptable results. Auto Focus and white balance where switched off. Regarding render time. It depends on your PC. I have a P4 3.4GHz pc with 1Gb of RAM. This takes approximately double the length of the video to render. EG 1 hours video takes 2 hours. However, I used Sony Vegas Movie Studio. Also if you add any effect (white balance, zoom etc.) it will increase rendering time considerably.

March 16th, 2008, 04:29 PM	#3
lmcgillet Former Staff Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 303 Thanks: 11,017 Thanked 4,123 Times in 198 Posts	Thank you! I have a P4 with 3GHZ and 2Gb of RAM, but used indeed several filters and also cropping and resizing. I feel the ULead software isn't too good (it came as a goodie with the graphics card, as far as I remember). Greetings - Luther

March 16th, 2008, 07:38 PM	#4
DubSalute Blocked! Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 4,775 Thanks: 8,926 Thanked 40,894 Times in 3,185 Posts	Perhaps Avidemux is usefull Luther, very much like VirtualDub but some things it does better, its also freeware. Probably you will need to store the .avi first on your harddisk. Has built in codecs and the 2.4.1 ZIP (non install) version only needs to be unzipped to a folder to give it a try by clicking on avidemux2_gtk.exe or avidemux2_qt4.exe (GTK and the QT4 version). Info and download links: http://vintage-erotica-forum.com/sho...0&postcount=83

November 27th, 2009, 06:11 AM	#7
Smallmouth Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 78 Thanks: 375 Thanked 1,783 Times in 68 Posts	To add to DARPA's question... can anyone recommend a reliable company that handles adult 8mm-to-DVD transfers in the US? Thanks in advance.