Atheist, are you one??

[Mal Hombre]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

That's your assessment, Mal. You might be mistaken, you know; just as I could also be mistaken. But if you choose to explain it, I will be interested in your reasoning for the assertion that God is a being with no moral authority whatsoever. If it is on the basis that God is an imaginery being, and does not actually exist, fair enough. However, I have sometimes observed people stating their belief that God does not exist, when what they really mean is that God has angered and disappointed them.

Well,I do not happen to believe in any of mankind's multitude of deities but regarding the concept of grovelling before the capricious, bloodthirsty monster of the Old Testament.He lacks moral authority IMHO because He condemned the whole of Humanity due to one woman's lapse of judgment.Consider,How many innocent children drowned in the Flood ? How many perished by fire in Sodom and Gomorrah? Who allowed Lucifer to kill Job's wife,children and even servants just to win a bet ? Who didn't revive Them but gave Job a new wife and children ? Which omnipotent being so feared His own creation that He confused Their speech and scattered Them over the earth ?. I could go on...

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by Mal Hombre

Well,I do not happen to believe in any of mankind's multitude of deities but regarding the concept of grovelling before the capricious, bloodthirsty monster of the Old Testament.He lacks moral authority IMHO because He condemned the whole of Humanity due to one woman's lapse of judgment.Consider,How many innocent children drowned in the Flood ? How many perished by fire in Sodom and Gomorrah? Who allowed Lucifer to kill Job's wife,children and even servants just to win a bet ? Who didn't revive Them but gave Job a new wife and children ? Which omnipotent being so feared His own creation that He confused Their speech and scattered Them over the earth ?. I could go on...

Yes indeed, and I could cite plenty of other examples as well. But I would point out that they tend to come from the Old Testament; this is (arguably) an extension of the point I made previously, about how the letter kills and the spirit gives life. Religion in general and the bible in particular is illogical and full of contradictions, frequently quite immoral; you cannot be a philosophically mature or moral or responsible person if you rely exclusively on religion and scripture for your decision making.

I would also point out:

• Although I know some people (stupid and dangerous people) believe scriptures to be the undiluted word of God, it seems clear enough to me that a book which has been collated from multiple sources, including oral tradition; translated from Hebrew to Ancient Greek to Latin and to English and hundreds of other modern languages cannot possibly have remained a letter perfect rendition of the original message. Others on this thread have argued that God was created by Man in Man's image, and I think there's a lot of truth in that; but regardless of whether God is a moral being or is not, all individual people are under a duty to do their own thinking. Both St Matthew and St Paul have written in the New Testament to say so, so there is nothing heretical [in a narrowly Christian sense] in me saying so.
• We live in an arbitary and unjust world and to believe in a God who has no sharp edges would be distinctly odd and at variance with real life.
• If one accepts the principle of omniscience, it makes sense that an omniscient being would be better equipped to make decisions than a limited and mortal being; and that when we question and challenge the moral basis of these decision we do so from a position of imperfect knowledge. But this argument also affects the debate between predestination and free will, because such a being as this is a puppet master and we here on the surface of the earth are no more than puppets; this is not my own belief.

You've raised a good argument, Mal. My heart refuses to concede, not least because I am mule-stubborn; but I certainly would not deny that your point has been well made. However, I do not recognise or acknowledge this God who acts with no moral authority. I think, rather, that we who live on this world are set a moral problem - how to live our lives - and that our lives and our world are constantly the outcome of choices we previously made. God told us the main rules of the game, but we cannot lay it off on God if we cheated or played badly.

Hubris calls for nemesis, and in one form or another it's going to get it, not as a punishment from outside but as the completion of a pattern already started.

Mary Midgeley: The Myths We Live By

[comeon93]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

it teaches those who follow it that if they try their best to live a good life, and if they repent of their sins when they fall short, God will forgive them, provided that they did try their best.

Actually, that's not what it teaches for you can do your best to live a good life and still go to hell. It's not being good that gets you to heaven, it's belief. So, for someone like me, for which belief is impossible, heaven is impossible.

[howerd]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

But if you choose to explain it, I will be interested in your reasoning for the assertion that God is a being with no moral authority whatsoever.

But all faiths whether they be Christian, Hindu, Zoroastrian etc. etc. etc. are faiths -get it? Reason is secondary. Reason plays second fiddle it's not the conductor. Reason isn't what we are supposed to be guided by because faith is where it's at hence the term being interchangeable with 'religion'.

Once we had astrology, now we have Astronomy.
Once we had alchemy, now we have Chemistry.
Once we had religion, now we have Philosophy.

...so why ask for mere 'reasons' if faith trumps rationality at the end of the day? Religious folk cherry pick the verses which they place most faith in. Picking the nicer ones by applying reason is of course better than picking the ghastly ones but with faith as your ultimate guide the folk who want to justify all the bad verses found in their Great Big Book Of Multiple Choice can still claim to be men & women of faith. That's the problem with all faiths.

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by comeon93

Actually, that's not what it teaches for you can do your best to live a good life and still go to hell. It's not being good that gets you to heaven, it's belief. So, for someone like me, for which belief is impossible, heaven is impossible.

But you can't get in by saying: even though I systematically violated every one of the Commandments every day all of my life, I believed in them all.

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by howerd

But all faiths whether they be Christian, Hindu, Zoroastrian etc. etc. etc. are faiths -get it? Reason is secondary. Reason plays second fiddle it's not the conductor. Reason isn't what we are supposed to be guided by because faith is where it's at hence the term being interchangeable with 'religion'.

Once we had astrology, now we have Astronomy.
Once we had alchemy, now we have Chemistry.
Once we had religion, now we have Philosophy.

...so why ask for mere 'reasons' if faith trumps rationality at the end of the day? Religious folk cherry pick the verses which they place most faith in. Picking the nicer ones by applying reason is of course better than picking the ghastly ones but with faith as your ultimate guide the folk who want to justify all the bad verses found in their Great Big Book Of Multiple Choice can still claim to be men & women of faith. That's the problem with all faiths.

Are you not interested in the conversation on a philosophical level, Howerd?

[comeon93]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

But you can't get in by saying: even though I systematically violated every one of the Commandments every day all of my life, I believed in them all.

Sure you can, all you need do is ask for forgiveness. Unless I am mistaken, there is only one sin that is not forgivable, and nobody even knows what exactly that sin is.

[comeon93]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

Are you not interested in the conversation on a philosophical level, Howerd?

They all get torn apart, even philosophically.

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by comeon93

Sure you can, all you need do is ask for forgiveness. Unless I am mistaken, there is only one sin that is not forgivable, and nobody even knows what exactly that sin is.

Do you mean like in The Jerry Springer Show? Its been a while since I went to Sunday School, but as I remember it, you were supposed to repent if you wanted to be forgiven, and deathbed repentence was insincere.

With my luck, the Unforgiveable Sin will turn out to be moderating on VEF.

[Mal Hombre]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

With my luck, the Unforgiveable Sin will turn out to be moderating on VEF.

Anyone who has had to moderate on VEF wil be found to have expiated all Their sins...