Weaponry; Discussion of Rights and Responsibilities

[Rogerbh]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/fla-school-...ry?id=53288339
There was an armed Officer at the school when the shooting occurred. He was right outside the building when the shooting was on going. He was suspended and then resigned. Sounds like an older officer who was waiting to retire and not willing to risk his life doing his job.

[Jota]

Originally Posted by Rogerbh

If your country was in our position, with many narco states south of the border, your addicts would be fueling the drug business. The reported murder rates in those countries although high is much lower than what it actually is because they don't find all the bodies.

The US lost the war on alcohol and is losing the war on drugs. In our geographic position, your countries would be losing too. I don't believe our gun laws have much of an effect on murder rates in the Narco trade. Just like I don't think we had much of an effect on the Rwandans hacking each other with machetes. Death came in those situations no matter what tools are used.

It is just a fact of life.

Your war on drugs was never winnable, any fool understands this, and what it has fundamentally achieved is making illegal narco gangs rich beyond their wildest dreams. It has stoked their growth.

If you make any trade illegal you make criminals very rich.

Decriminalise and provide the drugs via government funded outlets. Offer clean drugs, safe environments, information and health care.

Take away the cartels customers and what do they have? Nothing.
You also cut down the criminal activities of the users who no longer need to rob and steal to get their fix.

Ultimately you end up with hugely diminished drug cartels, much less gang violence over who controls what part of a city. You get much less crime from users. You get users involved with counsellors, medics etc and users get clean drugs.

The USA administration has to get over the stick up the arse brigade (religious) before any of this will happen.

[Jota]

Originally Posted by vannax

The AR15 is one of the most popular rifles for hunting in the US.
The best defense when one is going about his business is a concealed handgun.
Then there is the old maxim:
Rule number 1 in a gunfight: Bring a rifle.
Rule number 2 in a gunfight: Bring friends, with rifles.
This to has been proven in every theater of war.
Functionally, the AR15 is NO different than a Mini-14, which no-one has tried to ban, because it isn't scary-looking.


Also, if they were interested in saving lives, they wouldn't condemn the idea of hardening schools, like they do to celebrity events, banks, etc, which proves that hardening the target is the most effective way of stopping killers.
Hopefully, Trump will actually try to protect the children with meaningful legislation, of the type that has been PROVEN to work, which is hardening the target.

The left, with their gun-free zones, have much blood on their hands.

Your answer is to harden the whole country. That's the only answer you have to this issue. If you harden a school a shooter will go somewhere else. You'll suggest hardening those places next etc. Ultimately some corporation wil market the robocop style body suit. "Be safe in your world with this.....Robo-armour". "Get one for all the family."

I think the only sensible solution to America's problems is to nuke it from space, just to be sure, then start again this time with sensible people.

[SanteeFats]

Originally Posted by Jota

Your answer is to harden the whole country. That's the only answer you have to this issue. If you harden a school a shooter will go somewhere else. You'll suggest hardening those places next etc. Ultimately some corporation wil market the robocop style body suit. "Be safe in your world with this.....Robo-armour". "Get one for all the family."

I think the only sensible solution to America's problems is to nuke it from space, just to be sure, then start again this time with sensible people.

Good solution. Make it a radioactive waste, pollute the atmosphere for who knows how long, put a BIG hurt on Mexico and Canada. Yep well reasoned and extremely practicable. I salute you sir.

[bowlinggreen]

Originally Posted by Jota

I think the only sensible solution to America's problems is to nuke it from space, just to be sure, then start again this time with sensible people.

Despite appearances, SOME of us here in the States are sensible.

Though there are many here who are not.

The "guns everywhere" approach was originally meant to discourage marauding Kings and Queens from "over there", bent on bringing our nascent nation back into the embrace of European tyranny. And to prevent such tyrants from arising in our own government as well.

Now that there are no more Kings and Queens, none that hold real power anyway, and our government has tanks, warplanes and nuclear weapons to crush any "patriots" that might rise up against them, is this still a viable way of thinking?

The fact is is that these "scary black rifles" are now everywhere, often in the hands of the ill-trained or untrained who could not use them to good effect in case of war. They buy them because they are "cool". A gun is not a fashion statement, and those who think that they are probably should not have them.

A seasoned hunter with a good scoped bolt action could do a lot more damage with distant shots from beyond the treeline than could some out-of-shape, ignorant survivalist with an AR-15, were the need for civilian partisans to arise in the event of war, civil or otherwise.

I still say, bring back the draft. And EVERYBODY does boot camp, right out of high school. It can be like an extra summer school class. No military service, no military rifle. You'll have to show a valid military ID if you go to the gun store and want an AR-15, or some 30 round clips, or whatever.

In peacetime you can opt out. And I guarantee you that half of the youth who are now posturing as badass survivalist military types will magically transform into antiwar pacifists, when it is suddenly for real. The mental defectives and other misfits will be weeded out during training. Those who complete their training will be better citizens and more responsible with firearms as well.

There will be a lot less military type hardware in civilian hands if we do this, and those who DO have "scary black rifles" will be of the more responsible sort, the kind you want in your civilian "militia".

[Jota]

It was tongue in cheek for anyone whose ever seen Alien.

However, the proponents of hardening schools and arming teachers, there was an armed, on duty cop at the school and he never went in to confront the killer. To sit and say 'give teachers a gun' and believe it's the solution to these types of shootings smacks of watching too many Hollywood movies.

In the real world a great many people would rather run and hide than take a pistol to a rifle fight.

"Sheriff Israel said he would not be releasing the video showing Mr Peterson and might never do so, "depending on the prosecution and criminal case" against the 19-year-old suspect accused of carrying out the shooting, former student Nikolas Cruz."

Hidey hidey.

[bowlinggreen]

Originally Posted by Jota

It was tongue in cheek for anyone whose ever seen Alien.

Yes, I get that. There ARE a lot of people that would like to do that to the USA though, if they got the chance.

Originally Posted by Jota

However, the proponents of hardening schools and arming teachers, there was an armed, on duty cop at the school and he never went in to confront the killer. To sit and say 'give teachers a gun' and believe it's the solution to these types of shootings smacks of watching too many Hollywood movies.

In the real world a great many people would rather run and hide than take a pistol to a rifle fight.

"Sheriff Israel said he would not be releasing the video showing Mr Peterson and might never do so, "depending on the prosecution and criminal case" against the 19-year-old suspect accused of carrying out the shooting, former student Nikolas Cruz."

Hidey hidey.

Cops are SUPPOSED to jump into the fray and protect the innocent, even if the odds are against them. Sort of pisses me off, this. At least he is apparently all done as a cop.

I don't see arming schoolteachers as a remedy for this. Think about YOUR old teachers, how many could you see whipping out a gun and taking on a school shooter? I can think of exactly two, out of the dozens that I had over the years. Both were men, one was the woodshop teacher, he was a mean, tough bastard, the other was a Vietnam vet who was a little spooky. Actually, I don't know why he was a teacher, he looked like he'd have had a lot more fun being a cop.

And I grew up in a fairly rough redneck area full of farmers. I expect the politically correct teachers of today in all the suburban high schools would be even less likely to rise to the occasion.

[LadyLuck]

Originally Posted by bowlinggreen

I still say, bring back the draft. And EVERYBODY does boot camp, right out of high school. It can be like an extra summer school class. No military service, no military rifle. You'll have to show a valid military ID if you go to the gun store and want an AR-15, or some 30 round clips, or whatever.

Interesting proposal that I am not entirely opposed to. Since I have no need or desire to own an AR-15 or other military style rifle can I still keep my S&W 9mm pistol with the two 16 shot clips that came with it even if I elect not to spend a summer where I have to go sh!t in the corner just because some guy with one more stripe on his sleeve told me to go sh!t in the corner?

[bowlinggreen]

Originally Posted by LadyLuck

Interesting proposal that I am not entirely opposed to. Since I have no need or desire to own an AR-15 or other military style rifle can I still keep my S&W 9mm pistol with the two 16 shot clips that came with it even if I elect not to spend a summer where I have to go sh!t in the corner just because some guy with one more stripe on his sleeve told me to go sh!t in the corner?

I would assume so. We'd have to grandfather all of the existing weapons in anyway and not seize them outright from their current owners so there'd still be plenty around for awhile. But you would not be able to transfer a grandfathered weapon to anyone other than a qualified person. If none of them wants it, you'd have to turn it over to the government. This would apply for example, when an owner dies and his military styled weapons are up for disposal to interested parties.

Over a few decades, I think you'd see quite a drop in murders with military style guns.

And to stop the black market from supplying illicit weapons to crazies and gangs, we'd have to have some stiff penalties for illegal possession too. An automatic 5 years in prison at hard labor without parole would be a good start.

[Roubignol]

I've got two questions.

1) How easy is it possible to illegally buy a gun or an assault gun (like a M16) in the USA?

2) Do you get any Federal statistics showing the numbers of people killed by guns in comparison of the US states or districts?

That could be interesting to know the rate of killed peope depending of the tolerance to have a gun.

I've read that the delivery of guns depend on the authority of the states or districts inside states.

NYC is perhaps the most severe city since it prohibits a normal citizen from having a weapon, even for his personal defense. The issuance of a license remains at the sole discretion of the NYPD and is very difficult to obtain.