Atheist, are you one??

[rbb0965]

Hi Mal Hombre

You say

"To be specific,They claim to know that God exists,That He created the Universe,That He is responsible for every good thing that happens and guiltless over the bad,That He is a god of infinite love,Who nevertheless condemns those Who do not believe to eternal torment."

1: They claim to know that God exists

A: Not actually true, they say we believe in God, not that we know he exists, thats why we have an emphasis on faith in religion. Many people myself included have a personal relationship with God, but none of that has anything to do with the validity of my arguments.

2:That He created the Universe

A:I refer you to my earlier argument , if the Universe exists it's cause lies outside itself, that cause is immaterial, timeless and can create a Universe. I assume that as the Universe exists you will allow us to give the cause a name and call that cause God. I do not think this is an unwarranted claim.

3 and 4 deal with theological questions and although I am happy to deal with them in time, and indeed can give very good arguments for them, I think it would be confusing to do so now, I am only trying show a belief in God as the creator of the Universe is not unreasonable, nothing more just yet.

[Wendigo]

Originally Posted by rbb0965

I am only trying show a belief in God as the creator of the Universe is not unreasonable, nothing more just yet.

It's not unreasonable at all, neither is not believing in any God, it's a purely individual choice, I think if there ever was a sentient creative force it has long since given up paying any attention to this small planet and is probably on a quest looking for its own creator.

[Hertz]

I believe in God.
During the war in Croatia my family was moving in a convoy who moved to safe territory. Opposing forces stopped the convoy and took all the men and killed them. My father is the only one left alive, because he prayed to God all the time.They only ordered him to collect the dead bodies at one place and he can go.

[rbb0965]

Hi Wendigo

You say

"It's not unreasonable at all, neither is not believing in any God, it's a purely individual choice, I think if there ever was a sentient creative force it has long since given up paying any attention to this small planet and is probably on a quest looking for its own creator."

I hate to be argumentative but it is unreasonable not to believe in the God I have laid out. To not believe is to say "I believe in un-caused causes" or material things that create themselves. That is to me the definition of unreasoning.

As to how unimportant we are or what God is thinking or doing that is all in the realms of speculation and will have to wait for a later argument.

[rbb0965]

Dear Hertz

You say:

"I believe in God and the reason is simple. During the war in Croatia my family was moving in a convoy who moved to safe territory. Opposing forces stopped the convoy and they took all the men and killed them. My father is the only one left alive, because he prayed to God all the time.They only ordered him to collect the dead bodies at one place and he can go"

Your story is tragic and I thank God at least your father survived, I know some will say you comment is anecdotal and therefore irrelevant. But who hearing that story would not want to see justice done? Who would argue the murderers did no wrong? But without God there is no Justice no Wrong.

May God bless you and your father

[onehourplus]

Originally Posted by onehourplus

In his massive book on evolution, The Greatest Show on Earth, Richard Dawkins characterized religion as a "brain virus" that the human race has grown up with and can't seem to shake off. I'm reminded by this of an early Star Trek episode in which a thing wrapped itself around Spock's spine and hurt him every time he tried to get rid of it.

Dawkins goes a step further too; a bold, dark step: He says the phrase "there goes a catholic child" is incorrect. It should be "there goes a child of catholic parents." In other words, ramming religion down the throat of a defenseless child is child abuse, plain and simple.

I know, because I was a victim of it. I was raised in the agrarian south of the US by parents who were devoted to seeing that their boy turned out to be a good christian. I don't blame them, because the same thing happened to them as kids.

I never had the slightest hint of any religious inspiration, and I felt guilty about it for most of my youth. I went with the program though, because it was the path of least resistance. (In other words, I got fewer beatings that way.) Like Wendigo, by my late teens I was self-determinative enough to throw off the yoke of religion, and I got rid of it; all of it. I could never live down south again, because down there Jesus is behind every door and every tree.

That's right, I'm a soulless atheist. (Religious types don't have souls either, they just imagine that they do.) And when I die, I'm not headed for heaven or hell. I'm not headed anywhere, because that will be the end of me, period.

[Estreeter]

Originally Posted by howerd

1. Just because you can't understand how something could happen without a cause does that mean it couldn't?

Funny how that same argument applies to both sides of the question

BTW,



I think you're the Devil The greatest trick he pulls is proving he don't exist You're trying to prove there's no God, therefore there can be no Devil

Sorry, had a few Jameson's Irish Whiskey Well, I am Catholic

Carry on

[rbb0965]

Hi Onehourplus

You say:

"Dawkins goes a step further too; a bold, dark step: He says the phrase "there goes a catholic child" is incorrect. It should be "there goes a child of catholic parents." In other words, ramming religion down the throat of a defenseless child is child abuse, plain and simple.

I know, because I was a victim of it. I was raised in the agrarian south of the US by parents who were devoted to seeing that their boy turned out to be a good christian. I don't blame them, because the same thing happened to them as kids.

I never had the slightest hint of any religious inspiration, and I felt guilty about it for most of my youth. I went with the program though, because it was the path of least resistance. (In other words, I got fewer beatings that way.) Like Wendigo, by my late teens I was self-determinative enough to throw off the yoke of religion, and I got rid of it; all of it. I could never live down south again, because down there Jesus is behind every door and every tree.

That's right, I'm a soulless atheist. (Religious types don't have souls either, they just imagine that they do.) And when I die, I'm not headed for heaven or hell. I'm not headed anywhere, because that will be the end of me, period."

Leaving aside Richard Dawkins who is a poor example of an atheist indeed. The raising of ones children is and should rightly be in the hands of those who love them most (father and mother hopefully). This will lead to varying outcomes. In my case I raised both my children to have a healthy curiosity about everything God included. I had neither of them baptized, in fact I explained to both of them they can choose any God or no God as they see fit. My older son is 19 and has decided to be baptized this year, my younger son who is 13 is still in the deciding phase.

Dawkins has a terrible habit of seeing religious people as monolithic blocks, hardly very scientific. I would also say, if you parents did not give you a firm belief in God perhaps they gave you something else. All statistics show, Christians are less likely to be involved in crime drug taking and live longer. So spare a thought for your mum and dad, who may not have had the intellectual tools to do the job they wanted to do, but still did the best job they could.

[Wendigo]

Originally Posted by rbb0965

Hi Wendigo

I hate to be argumentative but it is unreasonable not to believe in the God I have laid out.

Well there we have it then that's your undeniable proof, because you say so. It always boils down to that in the end.

In the words of a recently departed great man "Listen very carefully, I will say this only once", if not believing in your particular version of God makes me seem unreasonable to you then sobeit, frankly I'm far too busy watching science fiction films right now and pondering the universe and alien life forms, ironic eh !!

[rbb0965]

Hi Wendigo

You say

"Well there we have it then that's your undeniable proof, because you say so. It always boils down to that in the end."

No not because I say so that is the whole point! My argument is "If a thing cannot call itself into existence" we need a force such as the one I suggested and have chosen to call God. I am saying it is not unreasonable to be an atheist. I am saying it is unreasonable to believe in un-caused causes.