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View Poll Results: Leave The EU or stay in The EU?
Leave The EU. 328 54.76%
Stay in The EU. 231 38.56%
I don't care either way/won't be voting. 27 4.51%
I'd rather not say. 13 2.17%
Voters: 599. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-17-2018, 04:53 PM   #3871
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Distressing how the government is only now figuring out what sort of deal it actually wants... Instead of say, two years ago before the vote, or before triggering article 50 around 18 months ago.

We are completely fucked.
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Old 05-17-2018, 05:03 PM   #3872
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Originally Posted by mokojono View Post
Distressing how the government is only now figuring out what sort of deal it actually wants... Instead of say, two years ago before the vote, or before triggering article 50 around 18 months ago.

We are completely fucked.
C'mon mokojono, cheer up!

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Old 05-17-2018, 05:34 PM   #3873
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Originally Posted by mokojono View Post
Distressing how the government is only now figuring out what sort of deal it actually wants... Instead of say, two years ago before the vote, or before triggering article 50 around 18 months ago.

We are completely fucked.



The reality is that May can't do a thing until we have a legal framework in place as set out in the Withdrawal bill. The minute this goes through all May's options fall into place.

The treacherous, unelected Lords are doing their utmost to poison the entire Brexit process. They're aided and abetted by self-serving Remainer MPs, a Labour party willing to sacrifice anything to gain power, and an obstructive civil service wedded to EU ideology.
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Old 05-17-2018, 08:40 PM   #3874
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I find the May administration ideologically disgraceful with its grammar schools fixation and "consultations" over the dementia tax when the Dilnot Report is now seven years old and offers fair and reasonable solutions. But they face problems which the Labour Party would have to face as well if it was in government. The fault lines over Brexit are internal, not external. Whatever Mrs May decides will be unacceptable to a significant cohort of her own MPs and, if she gets legislation carried in the House of Commons it will almost certainly be because some Labour MPs will support it whether their party allows them to or not. Most Labour MPs are Remainers but there are quite a few who aren't. Seven of them defied the authority of their party and voted for the EU withdrawal bill last year, and others abstained.

Mr Corbyn would be in a worse bind if he were in office and trying to implement his manifesto promise to respect the referendum vote. He has the New Labour faction to deal with, 47 of whom voted against the Article 50 bill, showing their own determination not to respect the referendum vote.

When you are really struggling to marshal support inside your own party, it becomes harder than ever to confront divisive issues. Britain's negotiating position on the Customs Union and the Single Market are just such issues. When she called the 2017 General Election I imagine Mrs May was expecting to win a majority big enough to keep her party rebels, both Leavers and Remainers in their place. But she ran a bloody awful campaign, was woeful on television and in the media and proposed a crypto-fascist barking mad right wing equivalent of the hardline socialist 1983 Labour suicide note manifesto, right down to wanting to bring back hunting foxes with hounds.

One way or another this country will leave the EU and this in the end will safeguard our sovereignty and our rights as a nation. It will lead to economic disruption though and it is the job of the UK government to manage the process efficiently and avoid unnecessary refinements of torture. Bickering now over matters we should have agreed internally last year will not help us next month when Mr Davies meets Mr Barnier again. The European Commission watches our moves.
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Old 05-17-2018, 09:11 PM   #3875
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When you consider that the Brexit campaign had effectively been going on for years,It beggars belief that no one ever gave any thought to how it would be accomplished and what would happen afterwards.
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Old 05-18-2018, 02:21 AM   #3876
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Mr Jacques, I have made some statements which I think you have misinterpreted, but I am not going to enter any arguments on here just give my thoughts.
What misinterpretation? On the contrary, I think we perfectly understand each other. Especially since you now seem to realise that the Irish border could become a significant stumbling block in those Brexit negotiations.

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Some of the advantages I have seen from remainers for staying in the EU:
No visa requirement or border restrictions for holidays or business travels to EU countries, no roaming charges for mobile phones, no restriction on watching Netflix in EU countries.
There are a lot of advantages that you have forgotten.
* All the EU programmes that benefit the regions overlooked by the British government. Those EU programmes aim to reduce regional wealth disparities:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...-how-does-thi/
http://ec.europa.eu/regional_policy/...2009/uk_en.pdf
http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/20...fited-from-eu/
* British farmers will greatly suffer when they no longer receive funds through the Common Agricultural Policy:
https://fullfact.org/europe/how-much...ve-eu-funding/
* And British citizens also benefit from EU agencies. For instance, British cancer patients can be treated because radioactive isotopes can quickly be imported to the UK. With Brexit, the UK will no longer be a member of Euratom:
http://uk.businessinsider.com/brexit...at-risk-2018-3
* And then, there are the advantages of being part of the single market and customs union, which have boosted the British economy and job growth. We are talking about trillions of pounds, which is much more than the UK's contribution to the EU budget.

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I can add a few more:
No more worrying about having to change money at EU borders because we will be forced into the Euro (and Schengen), no more worrying about defence budgets because it will be taken over by PESCO, no worries about higher wages when we can encourage cheap workers from Albania and other countries and our "quota" of immigrants not to mention free movement when German-based "refugees" are given citizenship, no worry about calculating rebate...there isn't going to be any, getting the economy moving by increasing inflation with an increase in Corporation Tax by 3% which goes to the EU and reducing the amount of tariffs that countries can keep by increasing the EU take to 90%.
Is that the Brexiters' Project Fear? No one is talking about forcing the UK to adopt the Euro. In fact, there are other EU members which have retained their own national currency. Same thing with Schengen and Pesco. On the other hand, I must admit that if the UK wants to remain in the EU, it is unlikely that it will keep its rebate.
About cheap workers, it's the UK's fault. The Home Office has set a salary threshold for non-EU workers (£35,000). Which means that the Home Office can refuse to grant a visa or can deport workers earning too little (Albania is not an EU member). Then, you have cheap EU workers, and that's also the UK's fault. I see a lot of EU citizens working in England in the catering industry, and as nurses and builders. I guess those jobs are not attractive enough for a lot of Brits. And for highly skilled jobs like doctors, engineers and computer programmers, British companies recruit EU citizens because the training in the UK is not good enough and they therefore have a shortage.
Not sure why you are complaining about the 3% turnover tax:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a7941116.html
Do you understand that it's to fight big corporations like Amazon, Google, Apple and Co. that are avoiding taxation? Unless you think tax avoidance is fine, even if it means less money for public services.

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The Eu budget is set to be €1.279 trillion for 2021 to 2027 up from €864.3 billion for the period 2007–2013.The figure amounts to 1.11% of the EU27’s gross national income (GNI), a significant rise compared to the previous budget cap at 1.03% of the GNI In 2016, the UK’s gross contribution to the EU amounted to £19 billion per annum.The UK currently provides approximately 12% of the resources available to the EU budget.If the UK were to stay in the EU the UK's contribution to the EU budget could be expected to be a lot higher than £19 billion pa.
So what's your point? Germany and France contribute more to the EU budget than the UK. You mention a gross contribution of £19 billion a year, but that figure is misleading. The UK's net contribution is in fact £8.6 billion (gross contribution of £17 billion, minus a rebate of £4 billion, minus £4.5 billion of EU spending on the UK):
https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-m...ee-55-million/
The EU budget will be fine without the UK: Brussels will have to trim some programmes and possibly borrow from banks and financial institutions. But thanks for worrying.
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Old 05-18-2018, 02:29 AM   #3877
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The EU has launched legal proceedings against the British Government for repeatedly breaking the bloc’s tight air pollution rules.
EU judges in Luxembourg will be able to hit Britain with huge fines under the bloc’s “infringement proceedings”.

The EU's ruling's will continue after brexit.Barnier said in order for a trade deal to be signed Britain would have to continue to comply with the EU’s environmental regulations.
He said there could be no reduction in environmental standards after Brexit as Britain could otherwise seek a “competitive advantage” over its neighbours.
Barnier added a “non-regression clause” must be included in the EU’s agreement on the future relationship with the UK to guard against a softening of rules.
The EU is not seeking revenge or punishment for Brexit. You understand that Germany and France have also breached EU rules on air pollution and are sued like the UK. I have no problem with those EU environmental laws. Lung cancer is a major cause of death in the UK and in Europe in general. Those EU laws are good for the citizens.
The alternative for the UK is to diverge from EU laws and turn Brexit into a race to the bottom (i.e. fuck health and the environment, let's make plenty of money). To clarify, Barnier did not say that complying with EU environment laws was a sine qua non condition for a trade deal, but if the Brits reject those laws, they will only get a weak deal. The French, the Spaniards, the Italians are not interested in buying chlorinated chicken, hormone-injected beef and other substandard products. It may be good for the British economy but not for EU citizens.

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Originally Posted by judy84 View Post
Some thoughts:
Wonder how much of this pollution is due to the German car industry lying about emissions. If proven could the UK lay a claim against Germany for damages?
Do they insist that every third party they have trade deals with must also abide by EU emissions regulations to reduce competitive advantage? If not, why not?
The German car industry has been the most stained by the diesel emissions scandal. However, there were other nations guilty of cheating:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_emissions_scandal
So I'm glad that Volkswagen had to pay a hefty fine. But keep in mind that pollution mostly remains local. If London produces a lot of pollution, the bulk of that pollution will remain around London. PM10 particles only travel 30 miles maximum, while PM2.5 particles can travel hundreds of miles:
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/what...-matter-551513
If pollution could spread evenly, then the UK would have the same pollution level everywhere, which is not the case. Air pollution in Cornwall is much lower than in London.

Quote:
Originally Posted by judy84 View Post
One point to note we have millions of EU citizens living in the UK and they add to the pollution levels. Do we get “pollution credits” from the countries they have come from? Can we pro rata any fines to these countries as their citizens are contributing?
Your comments about pollution from EU citizens don't make any sense and reek of europhobia. First, those EU citizens are impacted by their own pollution and by the pollution produced by the Brits. And second, what should we say about British expats living in EU countries? And can the UK seriously claim the moral high ground when it is more polluted than Ireland and Norway?
Go to page 80 for air pollution in Europe:
http://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/h...B75?sequence=1
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Old 05-18-2018, 12:35 PM   #3878
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No Brexit:
UK could remain in the EU but on worse terms, says Guy Verhofstadt. If Britain changes track and decides to remain a member of the European Union it could lose perks such as budget rebates and opt-outs, according to the European Parliament’s Brexit coordinator.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a7790886.html

So if the UK wanted to rejoin the EU it would have to submit an application for membership as if it were applying for the first time.
That probably means signing up to the Schengen area on passport-free movement and, importantly, committing to joining the euro. It would also mean recommitting to the goal of “ever closer union”.
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Old 05-18-2018, 12:39 PM   #3879
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The UK's overall net contributions are even higher than those shown in the official EU budget. The UK also pays further amounts to the EU which are not formally included in the EU's budget, and which do not appear in any summaries you will read in the British media or in House of Commons Library report,eg administrative costs, co-funding of EU projects.



The new EU budget plan seeks to fill the roughly €12-15 billion annual hole left by Brexit (Budget Commissioner Gunther Oettinger), which is what UK has been paying in.

http://www.money-go-round.eu/Country.aspx?id=UK

The Commission has proposed changes to the current overall financing – “Own Resources” – system and diversifying the budget’s sources of revenue.

The proposed new own resources include:

1)20 percent of the revenues from the Emissions Trading System

2)A 3 percent call rate applied to the new Common Consolidated Corporate Tax Base

3)A national contribution calculated on the amount of non-recycled plastic packaging waste in each country.
These proposed taxes will disproportionally hit UK compared to other EU countries.

https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-b...ramework-blog/

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/site...may2018_en.pdf

The increase in GNI and the inrcease to 1.11% take of that GNI by the EU together with no rebate and the extra revenues means UK will be paying about £22 bn pa if we were to stay in the EU.
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Old 05-18-2018, 12:46 PM   #3880
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The EU is insisting on a "level playing field" as part of the Brexit negotiations. In other words it is trying to prevent the UK from operating as an independent country in all respects, with its own taxation policies and other frameworks which would make the UK a more competitive country than those in the EU.
What could be a more obvious lack of a level playing field than that of UK businesses being forced to compete with businesses in countries with a minimum wage being 1/5th that of the UK? That is the current situation whilst the UK is still in the EU. When the UK leaves, it will still have this un-level "playing field".

In addition companies operating in one country can make royalty payments to parent companies overseas, enabling them to shift profits out of countries with higher corporation tax rates.
In 2016 the EU Commission ruled that Ireland had given the US multinational Apple illegal state aid by allowing it to pay an effective 1 per cent corporation tax.

“These practices undermine fairness and the level playing field in our internal market, and they increase the burden on EU taxpayers,” said EU tax commissioner Pierre Moscovici.

Multinational companies shifted profits through Ireland – an accounting technique designed to avoid corporation tax - equivalent to almost a quarter of the country’s GDP between 2010 and 2015.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...-a8244456.html
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