The Second World War.

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by redkenus

THE BLEIBURG MASSACRES (its not exactly our proudest moment)

In 1945, the overwhelming majority of Croatian people returned to Yugoslavia from Austria were not killed at Bleiburg itself, but following their recrossing of the Drava. However, historically the involuntary repatriation of Croats in that year has long borne the name of the Austrian town where their Calvary began. I do not propose on this occasion to attempt any detailed account of the fate of the unfortunate victims after they had been returned to Yugoslavia, nor to attempt any statistical estimate, since these are topics at present undergoing specialised research within Croatia.

I intend here to concentrate attention on one aspect of the greater event, which to this day remains a strange and sinister mystery: the decision of the British military authorities to hand the Croats over to be slaughtered has never received any satisfactory explanation. It is an enigma which I have been researching now for nearly twenty years, to which even now I am unable to provide a coherent account, which is consistent with currently available evidence and historically more satisfactory account contained in my book The Minister and the Massacres (1986), and the curious version of events which appears in the British Government’s authorised report, The Repatriations from Austria in 1945 (1990).

Who were these people? Overwhelmingly they will have been people who didn't fancy being in the jurisdiction of the Communist partisans at the end of Ww2. It may well be that many of them were innocent people, but you would have to think that more often than not they were on the wrong side - Ustashe and their dependants.

In May 1945, Carinthia was chokka with very doubtful characters whose common denominator was that they had gone there to avoid the Red Army and/or the Communist Yugoslav partisans, preferring British custody. I suspect that the British Army decided that it preferred the room of many such people to their company - simple as that.

[jokerman]

Originally Posted by redkenus

THE BLEIBURG MASSACRES (its not exactly our proudest moment)

In 1945, the overwhelming majority of Croatian people returned to Yugoslavia from Austria were not killed at Bleiburg itself, but following their recrossing of the Drava. However, historically the involuntary repatriation of Croats in that year has long borne the name of the Austrian town where their Calvary began. I do not propose on this occasion to attempt any detailed account of the fate of the unfortunate victims after they had been returned to Yugoslavia, nor to attempt any statistical estimate, since these are topics at present undergoing specialised research within Croatia.

I intend here to concentrate attention on one aspect of the greater event, which to this day remains a strange and sinister mystery: the decision of the British military authorities to hand the Croats over to be slaughtered has never received any satisfactory explanation. It is an enigma which I have been researching now for nearly twenty years, to which even now I am unable to provide a coherent account, which is consistent with currently available evidence and historically more satisfactory account contained in my book The Minister and the Massacres (1986), and the curious version of events which appears in the British Government’s authorised report, The Repatriations from Austria in 1945 (1990).

You can also add to that the Spittal an der Drau tragedy. When the White Russaians and the Cossacks as well as the Georgians amongst others. who fought against the USSR alongside the Nazis were also at the end of the war were also being forcibly being repatriated to the USSR. And who were therefore subsequently murdered by Stalin and Beria.

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by jokerman

You can also add to that the Spittal an der Drau tragedy. When the White Russaians and the Cossacks as well as the Georgians amongst others. who fought against the USSR alongside the Nazis were also at the end of the war were also being forcibly being repatriated to the USSR. And who were therefore subsequently murdered by Stalin and Beria.

Once again, they picked the wrong side. In addition, they picked sides with an invading alien enemy and against their own countrymen. If you do that, and you are caught wearing the enemy's uniform, it isn't going to end well - that's just the way things go. Think of William Joyce and you can see how the Russian side will have reacted to these people.

[Dr Pepper]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

Once again, they picked the wrong side. In addition, they picked sides with an invading alien enemy and against their own countrymen. If you do that, and you are caught wearing the enemy's uniform, it isn't going to end well - that's just the way things go. Think of William Joyce and you can see how the Russian side will have reacted to these people.

William Joyces's conviction and subsequent execution was on very shaky legal grounds-and was recognised as such in a formal opinion by a very very senior UK legal mind-I think the Attorney General (I may be using a NZ legal appointment name here-but the UK equivalent or similar)

[haroldeye]

Part of the Yalta agreement was that Soviet citizens who fought against the Soviet Union would be returned to the Soviets. Many of these people were from subject states who believed they were fighting for their own and their country's freedom. The British troops were not awfully keen on sending men back to what they suspected would be 9mm re-education but it had to be done.

Fathers cousin was part of the Commission that interviewed individuals to determine whether or not they were Nazis or just caught up in the whole awful business. He took a very liberal view.

As to Joyce, if you listen to his broadcasts I think he deserved to swing on grounds of total twatishness.

[haroldeye]

Re earlier posts about magazine loaders and bandoliers, here is a photo of a kit layout a Royal Marine would take to the Falklands in 1982. It shows a bandolier of 7.62 ball and a bandolier of 50 7.62 link for the GPMG (in fetching Green, I'd forgotten about those). In between the SLR and it's sling is a magazine quick loading device and a foresight protector. The highly bulled boots combat high were only in use after the war.

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by Dr Pepper

William Joyces's conviction and subsequent execution was on very shaky legal grounds-and was recognised as such in a formal opinion by a very very senior UK legal mind-I think the Attorney General (I may be using a NZ legal appointment name here-but the UK equivalent or similar)

When you look carefully at the case against William Joyce, it stands up.

Some of the charges were not accepted by the jury and quite rightly. In particular, the jurors unanimously acquitted him of all treason charges srising from broadcasts he made after he was officially made a German citizen because he had renounced British citizenship. The prosecution tried to argue that this was a "purported" change of status, but the jurors, all of them British citizens, were not swayed. When you renounce British citizenship officially and become naturalised as a German citizen, you are allowed to serve in war as a German citizen. Thems the rules - and Joyce's case is a recognised legal precedent on that specific matter.

But Joyce had started to broadcast too soon, before the paperwork was complete. The prosecution were able to prove that he was still holding himself to be a British citizen when he first hit the airwaves. That was critical in his conviction and hanging.

Another question in Joyce's case which his defence probably should have argued more forcefully was whether in fact he was a British citizen anyway. He was born in Brooklyn, New York; but his parents, staunch Unionists, returned to Ireland when he was three. He was entitled to British citizenship because both of his parents were Irish at a time when Ireland was legally inside the UK. He lived in the UK between the ages of three and thirty three, moving to England from Ireland when the civil war became too hot for comfort. However, he was also entitled to US citizenship and to Irish citizenship and could have used this as a ploy in his defence. His problems there though would have been:

1. For thirty years he had claimed all the privileges of bring British, from going to school to taking work and claiming the dole. This made it harder to convince a jury that he wasn't British.
2. The Americans might have agreed to treat him as a US citizen. But they would have hanged him with alacrity. They hanged the Rosenbergs for a lot less than what Joyce did.
3. The Irish citizenship might have been Joyce's best bet, but he would have probably choked with frustration if De Valera had come to his rescue. Also, given Joyce's known Unionist sympathies, it is doubtful whether the Irish government would have wanted to help him.

The record of Joyce's broadcasting was never in doubt and he lived most of his life as a British subject, and then knifed Britain in the back. Justice was served. William Joyce was hanged because he deserved it.

[Ennath]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

The Americans might have agreed to treat him as a US citizen. But they would have hanged him with alacrity. They hanged the Rosenbergs for a lot less than what Joyce did.

The Rosenbergs were hanged for a lot more than Joyce did. While the evidence against Ethel was somewhat thin (for espionage, anyway - conspiracy to commit espionage is another matter), that against Julius was anything but. They were actively engaged in the Soviet effort to steal atomic research.

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by Ennath

The Rosenbergs were hanged for a lot more than Joyce did. While the evidence against Ethel was somewhat thin (for espionage, anyway - conspiracy to commit espionage is another matter), that against Julius was anything but. They were actively engaged in the Soviet effort to steal atomic research.

Espionage is an extremely serious crime. For example, I was disappointed to learn recently that Jonathan Pollard is out on parole. But it is highly unusual to hang spies in peacetime and I have always felt that the Rosenbergs were too harshly punished. We British gave Klaus Fuchs 14 years, of which he only served 9 - that was too lenient IMHO. For what he did, it should have been double that. At least we deported him to East Germany to enjoy the workers paradise. But we didn't hang him and neither should we have, and his crime was probably worse than the Rosenbergs for the harm he did.

However, I would class William Joyce as a traitor against the British rank and file people, not the establishment alone. His war was fought against ordinary people, in a really mean and malicious way. My grandfather loathed William Joyce. After he was injured repairing RAF radios (he got no compensation and no pension) he scratched a living repairing those great big valve driven radios in peoples living rooms and he was expected by the police to inform if he caught anyone listing to William Joyce - it was a crime to listen to him. My grandfather wouldn't give the police the time of day, let alone inform to them; but he frequently pulled people up for listening to Joyce and explained it was both a crime and a petty act of treason. He used to comment wistfully that on the day William Joyce was hanged, he opened and drank a bottle of pale ale, just to enjoy the moment.

[Dr Pepper]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

When you look carefully at the case against William Joyce, it stands up.





The record of Joyce's broadcasting was never in doubt and he lived most of his life as a British subject, and then knifed Britain in the back. Justice was served. William Joyce was hanged because he deserved it.

Well a lot of legal minds dispute that-and you can see that in the wiki entry. The issue seems mainly about the charge of treason-and whether his activities fell within that-as distinct from 'giving solace and support to the kings enemies'

Joyce was a lifelong fascist-and at least consistent in his beliefs and outlooks.In comparison his fellow traveller John Amery-who was also convicted of treason-actively recruited (with very limited success) personnel to fight for the Axis....and in my mind a greater traitor.

I am also cognizant that Eamon de Valera only escaped a British firing squad by dint of his American birth after the 1916 Uprising-so there is a significant past precedent that was ignored in Joyce's case-because the UK was out to make an example of him.

Scoundrel-seeing you seem to have some strong opinions on this-what Treason act was Joyce prosecuted under- the 1351 Act or the 1945 one?