The First World War - Page 6

**palo5** · March 21st, 2012, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by knobby109

It was a team effort, American troops played a part but only a part...

From what we learned, without supplies and troops from America, France and England would have lost

It is impossible not to believe this

**jokerman** · March 21st, 2012, 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by palo5

Well, in June 1918 there were 900.000 and they were arriving at 10.000 per day according to this US .mil site

http://www.history.army.mil/books/AM...2/chapter1.htm

At the same time, the British had less than half a million soldiers in France, if British historian John Keegan can be believed. And the French also had much less than thought

I am old, but was not there and didn't count them - and I don't know how other people counted them

However, I absolutely believe that it was Americans that convinced German soldiers to stop fighting, because it was impossible for them to equal their manpower, and they knew they could not win

Agreed. But as I've already said they didn't enter the fight until March 1918 & the war allegedly ended in november of that year.
However you're also correct in saying that America's military might tipped the ballance in the allies favour.

**tygrkhat40** · March 22nd, 2012, 02:24 AM

It also helped that Pershing refused to allow American troops to be put into the trenches as the French and British wanted.

**DTravel** · March 22nd, 2012, 03:53 AM

As I recall, the UK and France wanted to simply use American soldiers as replacements within their own units, not have actual US Army units.

As for the "Bad Generals" meme, it is very common for armies to go thru a rapid turnover in officers and major changes in tactics and doctrine at the start of a major war. There is the old saw about how armies are always ready to re-fight the last war, not the current/up-coming one. Combined with the natural tendency for military forces to promote entirely different kinds of officers in peace versus during war, there is almost guaranteed to be a painful and costly re-learning curve in the early parts of a major war. The US saw it in our own Civil War, in WWI, WWII, and Vietnam. So I am not in the least surprised it happened to the British and French as well.

**Ennath** · March 22nd, 2012, 11:01 AM

March 22, 1909
Diplomatic Relations Faced with a clear German threat of war, Russia backs down. She is still rebuilding from the Russo-Japanese War and is in no way ready for a new one.
The Germans take away from the affair that this is the way to get results from the Russians. “You must always treat Slavs so”, the Kaiser declares.
The Russians resolve that they will never again submit to such humiliation. If a second challenge should come, Russia will accept.

March 22, 1915
Eastern Front The fortress of Przemysl surrenders to the Russians with 126,000 prisoners and 700 big guns. The Austrian offensives attempting to relieve the fortress have cost another 800,000 casualties. The fall of the fortress leads one German official to complain that Germany is “shackled to a corpse”.
Mediterranean After conferring with Hamilton, de Robeck changes his mind about resuming the naval attack – he will not continue until the army joins in, and he so informs Churchill. Hamilton estimates that his troops can be assembled and ready for landing by mid-April.

March 22, 1916
Western Front, Verdun The Germans gain a footing on Haucourt Knoll.
Eastern Front The Russians take 1000 prisoners at Lake Naroch. The Germans recapture the Postavy position. The thaw resumes, turning the battlefield again into mud with slush and water-filled shell holes.
Egypt Captain T. E. Lawrence leaves Cairo on a secret mission to Basra.
War at Sea The depth charge is successfully used for the first time, as the Q-Ship Farnborough sinks U-68 off Kerry.
Sudan British forces in Darfur occupy Jebel el Hella.
China Yuan Shih-k’ai, the military overlord of China who has been obliged to grant the Japanese numerous concessions in the preceding two years, responds to opposition throughout China and from foreign governments – including that of Japan – by abjuring any effort to restore the monarchy. He had been chosen as emperor the previous November, although he has not yet been crowned.

March 22, 1917
War at Sea The German raider Mowe returns home after a second cruise, sinking 111,000 tons of shipping.
Eastern Front The Russians retake some lost trenches near Vilna.
Russian Command Yudenich is removed from the Caucasus command and sent to command in Central Asia. The Caucasus Army, like the other Russian armies, will soon begin to fall apart.
Allied Diplomacy Britain, France, and Italy recognize the Russian Provisional Government. The United States also recognizes the new government, whose assumption of power is well received in America and appears to bolster the view that the war against Imperial Germany and Austria-Hungary now more clearly involves the advancement of liberty and democracy.
Alexeev responds to a French request for Russian offensive action by pointing out that it would be impossible to attack just now.
United StatesA rally of 12,000 people at Madison Square Garden cheers Roosevelt, supporting his call for war.

March 22, 1918
Western Front A thick fog hampers morning operations, but it burns off by noon. With their positions and resolve hardened, Byng and Horne’s troops stunt the advance of Below’s 17th Army along the northern sector of the front. But in late afternoon, massive waves of Below’s soldiers dislodge the 3rd Army from the ruins of Vracourt, forcing Byng to withdraw his flanks during the night. At the center of the front, Hutier’s troops relentlessly drive Gough’s 5th Army. Gough’s troops in the south also fall back, surrendering Tergnier and positions on the Oise Canal. By the end of the day, the Germans hold 5th Army’s entire battle zone. There is peril of a break between 3rd and 5th Armies.
Palestine British troops cross the Jordan, aiming to take Amman and cut the Hejaz Railway.
Diplomatic Relations The Dutch government is informed of the impending Allied seizure of their merchant ships abroad.

**haroldeye** · March 22nd, 2012, 03:01 PM

DT the British had much experience of using colonial types (Canadians, Australians, New Zealanders and South Africans and by 1918 knew that they intended to fight as national elements. Pershing in particular would not and did not allow any interference from the Allies in his army. Sadly this also mean't that most of the lessons that had been learned over three and a half years didn't get passed on to the American officers and soldiers. US casualty rates were every bit as bad as everyone else's had been earlier in the war. Blackjack was one hell of a general but there were a huge amount of Doughboys left in France because of his arrogance.

**Mal Hombre** · March 22nd, 2012, 04:33 PM

Of course "Black Jack" wasn't Pershing's original nickname,He started out as an Officer in an African American regiment so You can guess what that nickname was...

**sydney1** · March 22nd, 2012, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mal Hombre

Of course "Black Jack" wasn't Pershing's original nickname,He started out as an Officer in an African American regiment so You can guess what that nickname was...

Hmmmm, Jack Daniel's...

**palo5** · March 22nd, 2012, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DTravel

As I recall, the UK and France wanted to simply use American soldiers as replacements within their own units, not have actual US Army units...

Can that be true?

I learned that Americans were organized in super-size divisions of almost 30.000 men - iow, Corps-size

It would be interesting to know how the UK and France thought this was possible

**Ennath** · March 22nd, 2012, 10:31 PM

The rapid expansion of the US Army in 1917 brought in a lot of manpower, but there was a shortage of officers for so many new men. The oversized divisions were the result, with a standard number of officers controlling a lot more men. The divisions were powerful, but not much use for anything except head-on attack - there just weren't enough officers to manage any complex maneuvers. Fortunately, the German army of 1918 was not the German army of 1915, or things might have gotten much uglier.

March 22nd, 2012, 02:24 AM	#53
tygrkhat40 Long Suffering Bills Fan Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: The City of Good Neighbors Posts: 9,669 Thanks: 304,243 Thanked 152,570 Times in 9,629 Posts	It also helped that Pershing refused to allow American troops to be put into the trenches as the French and British wanted. __________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

March 22nd, 2012, 03:53 AM	#54
DTravel Lean Mean Screencap Machine Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Better you don't know. Posts: 23,807 Thanks: 10,480 Thanked 207,342 Times in 23,716 Posts	As I recall, the UK and France wanted to simply use American soldiers as replacements within their own units, not have actual US Army units. As for the "Bad Generals" meme, it is very common for armies to go thru a rapid turnover in officers and major changes in tactics and doctrine at the start of a major war. There is the old saw about how armies are always ready to re-fight the last war, not the current/up-coming one. Combined with the natural tendency for military forces to promote entirely different kinds of officers in peace versus during war, there is almost guaranteed to be a painful and costly re-learning curve in the early parts of a major war. The US saw it in our own Civil War, in WWI, WWII, and Vietnam. So I am not in the least surprised it happened to the British and French as well. __________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. I rage and weep for my country. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. I can reup screencaps, other material might have been lost.

March 22nd, 2012, 04:33 PM	#57
Mal Hombre El Super Moderador Join Date: May 2009 Location: Adoptive Monkey Hanger Posts: 58,134 Thanks: 772,663 Thanked 855,761 Times in 57,565 Posts	Of course "Black Jack" wasn't Pershing's original nickname,He started out as an Officer in an African American regiment so You can guess what that nickname was... __________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. If in doubt, Just ask Yourself What Would Max Do ? It is a porn site,But its a Classy porn site. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

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March 22nd, 2012, 11:01 AM	#55
Ennath Vintage Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 6,814 Thanks: 26,902 Thanked 80,771 Times in 6,813 Posts	March 22, 1909 Diplomatic Relations Faced with a clear German threat of war, Russia backs down. She is still rebuilding from the Russo-Japanese War and is in no way ready for a new one. The Germans take away from the affair that this is the way to get results from the Russians. “You must always treat Slavs so”, the Kaiser declares. The Russians resolve that they will never again submit to such humiliation. If a second challenge should come, Russia will accept. March 22, 1915 Eastern Front The fortress of Przemysl surrenders to the Russians with 126,000 prisoners and 700 big guns. The Austrian offensives attempting to relieve the fortress have cost another 800,000 casualties. The fall of the fortress leads one German official to complain that Germany is “shackled to a corpse”. Mediterranean After conferring with Hamilton, de Robeck changes his mind about resuming the naval attack – he will not continue until the army joins in, and he so informs Churchill. Hamilton estimates that his troops can be assembled and ready for landing by mid-April. March 22, 1916 Western Front, Verdun The Germans gain a footing on Haucourt Knoll. Eastern Front The Russians take 1000 prisoners at Lake Naroch. The Germans recapture the Postavy position. The thaw resumes, turning the battlefield again into mud with slush and water-filled shell holes. Egypt Captain T. E. Lawrence leaves Cairo on a secret mission to Basra. War at Sea The depth charge is successfully used for the first time, as the Q-Ship Farnborough sinks U-68 off Kerry. Sudan British forces in Darfur occupy Jebel el Hella. China Yuan Shih-k’ai, the military overlord of China who has been obliged to grant the Japanese numerous concessions in the preceding two years, responds to opposition throughout China and from foreign governments – including that of Japan – by abjuring any effort to restore the monarchy. He had been chosen as emperor the previous November, although he has not yet been crowned. March 22, 1917 War at Sea The German raider Mowe returns home after a second cruise, sinking 111,000 tons of shipping. Eastern Front The Russians retake some lost trenches near Vilna. Russian Command Yudenich is removed from the Caucasus command and sent to command in Central Asia. The Caucasus Army, like the other Russian armies, will soon begin to fall apart. Allied Diplomacy Britain, France, and Italy recognize the Russian Provisional Government. The United States also recognizes the new government, whose assumption of power is well received in America and appears to bolster the view that the war against Imperial Germany and Austria-Hungary now more clearly involves the advancement of liberty and democracy. Alexeev responds to a French request for Russian offensive action by pointing out that it would be impossible to attack just now. United StatesA rally of 12,000 people at Madison Square Garden cheers Roosevelt, supporting his call for war. March 22, 1918 Western Front A thick fog hampers morning operations, but it burns off by noon. With their positions and resolve hardened, Byng and Horne’s troops stunt the advance of Below’s 17th Army along the northern sector of the front. But in late afternoon, massive waves of Below’s soldiers dislodge the 3rd Army from the ruins of Vracourt, forcing Byng to withdraw his flanks during the night. At the center of the front, Hutier’s troops relentlessly drive Gough’s 5th Army. Gough’s troops in the south also fall back, surrendering Tergnier and positions on the Oise Canal. By the end of the day, the Germans hold 5th Army’s entire battle zone. There is peril of a break between 3rd and 5th Armies. Palestine British troops cross the Jordan, aiming to take Amman and cut the Hejaz Railway. Diplomatic Relations The Dutch government is informed of the impending Allied seizure of their merchant ships abroad.

March 22nd, 2012, 03:01 PM	#56
haroldeye Moderator Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Halfwitistan Posts: 5,715 Thanks: 113,498 Thanked 59,965 Times in 5,707 Posts	DT the British had much experience of using colonial types (Canadians, Australians, New Zealanders and South Africans and by 1918 knew that they intended to fight as national elements. Pershing in particular would not and did not allow any interference from the Allies in his army. Sadly this also mean't that most of the lessons that had been learned over three and a half years didn't get passed on to the American officers and soldiers. US casualty rates were every bit as bad as everyone else's had been earlier in the war. Blackjack was one hell of a general but there were a huge amount of Doughboys left in France because of his arrogance.

March 22nd, 2012, 10:31 PM	#60
Ennath Vintage Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 6,814 Thanks: 26,902 Thanked 80,771 Times in 6,813 Posts	The rapid expansion of the US Army in 1917 brought in a lot of manpower, but there was a shortage of officers for so many new men. The oversized divisions were the result, with a standard number of officers controlling a lot more men. The divisions were powerful, but not much use for anything except head-on attack - there just weren't enough officers to manage any complex maneuvers. Fortunately, the German army of 1918 was not the German army of 1915, or things might have gotten much uglier.