The First World War

[otokonomidori]

My great-uncle got himself killed in 1917 - the silly bastard had volunteered in 1914.

He was mortally wounded by shellfire while returning from a raid on the German trenches by all accounts.
If there is an afterlife I wonder if he thinks it was worth dying for the selfish, cynical likes of me.

Still, he shouldn't have joined if he couldn't take a joke!

Frankly it was a something of a relief [and a surprise] to find out he hadn't been shot at dawn for running away from danger as fast as his Scottish legs would carry him.

[knobby109]

I see the "incompetent commanders" idea is raising its head again.
The War was a learning curve for all involved.It was new ground for everybody.Nobody had experience of commanding large bodies of troops.That there were incompetent commanders is true but this wasn't the norm.The overriding problem was that defence was easier and more effective than offence but wars can't be won by defence.The attacking side had to come out into the open, laden down with equipment and usually in muddy conditions.Having done that, the defence could be reinforced quickly and easily by rail and road transport.In all battles the attacking side lost more troops than the defenders.
Haig is often described as a reactionary unimaginative general.But to begin with he was subordinate to the French and many times was obliged by them to make ill advised attacks and to persist when they became unwise.But by 1918 he had the most modern Army on the planet with coordination between infantry, tanks (which he supported from the first) and air power.He was surprisingly well liked by the troops-the anti-Haig sentiment was a post-war development probably when the scale of the losses had sunk in.

[OtisOne]

Originally Posted by fleetwood77

My great-uncle got himself killed in 1917 - the silly bastard had volunteered in 1914.

Fleet,

My first reaction was to say he's lucky he lasted so long. And then I considered the horror of living in the trenches for such a stretch, and now I'm not so sure.

So many millions wasted; such a shame.

OO

[haroldeye]

Originally Posted by elf4736

If anyone is interested

The Storm of Steel (Ernst Junger)

Eye Deep In Hell (John Ellis)

Death's Men (Denis Winter)

Try also

Forgotten Victory (Gary Sheffield)

Mud Blood and Poppycock (Gordon Corrigan)

Palo old thing your normally intuitive and erudite comments let you down on this one.

The British generals in WW1 took an army of 300,000 men that was configured for colonial policing and turned it into one of nearly 5 million. They had to contend with and find solutions to field engineering and artillery concentrations at levels that until they happened had been quite unimaginable. They had to deal with the introduction of chemical/air/armour and they had to do so whilst maintaining an offensive posture. That they managed to juggle all these balls together, lead their men through the sheer hell of the trenches (without a major mutiny) and then go on and beat what was regarded as the best trained and best led army in the world is little short of a miracle. And history has recorded these men as buffoons.

The old horseshit about how bad they were started many years after the war ended and not by those who were there but by the so called intelligensia and the bloomsbury set. In the early sixties a chap called Clarke wrote a book called 'Lions led by donkeys' which was taken as gospel proof of how stupid Haig and co were, since his death Clarke has been revealed as a drunken, womanising untrustworthy fraud. Nothing against drink or women to excess but bad research (or no research) followed by nothing but good PR is unforgivable. His bloody awful book inspired Joan Littlewood and her theatre workshop group to create 'Oh What a Lovely War'. An excellent piece of work but sadly used by generations of know naughts to create a nonsense.

[buttsie]

Having studied modern European History for a few years 30 years ago the things I recall all too vividly are that WW1 was akin to hell on earth...it really was a new era of warfare
when you consider the introduction of the likes of mustard gas

The poems of WW1 written by the likes of Wilfred Owen
who survived it are chilling

Even movies made by french film makers like Jeunet in recent decades of WW1
have a surreal feeling to them ie a very long engagement
(beautifully shot one of my favourite films because it shows what they had & lost but more than anything else it shows the human spirit to endure hardship be it physical or emotional

It shows the real cost of war not just the fatalities





When your own officers are prepared to shoot you if you dont charge into a certain death of no mans land all I can say is what were they thinking

Best illustrated by the film Gallipoli...
Still brings a lump to my throat because it happened

It was all a senseless slaughter that we commemorate till this day

Gallipoli Movie Ending
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eeijbtbnjQ

[Ennath]

March 21, 1909
Diplomatic Relations The Germans inform the Russians that “unless Russia agreed to recognize the annexation of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Germany would leave Austria-Hungary a free hand.” The message is clear: Austria would overwhelm Serbia; if Russia attempted to aid her Serbian client, the German Empire would stand beside Austria. “We expect a precise answer, Yes or No. Any vague, complicated, or ambiguous reply will be treated as a refusal.”

March 21, 1915
Western Front There is severe fighting at Bagatelle in the Argonne.
War in the Air German Zeppelins fly over Paris. One, hit by ground fire, returns home. The other two drop high explosive and incendiary bombs on the city and its suburbs, killing one person and injuring eight.
Eastern Front The Germans reoccupy Memel. The Germans abandon their attacks on Osovyets.
Diplomatic Relations The Italians recall their military attaché from Vienna.

March 21, 1916
Ireland There are disturbances at Tullamore, King’s County.
Eastern Front The Russians attack on the Dvina front, crossing the river near Jacobstadt. There are further Russian gains on the Dniestr.
Just after midnight, the Russian artillery at Lake Naroch opens up. At 3:30 AM the infantry attack at two points and succeed in taking the forward German trenches. A German counterattack fails. The German position at Postavy falls as the offensive continues.
German East Africa The British occupy Arusha.

March 21, 1917
Western Front British troops are approaching St. Quentin.
Macedonia The French have pushed far enough to free Monastir from daily bombardment. That is the only significant gain of the spring offensive, now ending, despite the bitter fighting.
Eastern Front A Russian attack on the Stokhod is beaten back with the loss of 10,000 prisoners.
Russia There is a general amnesty for political prisoners. The food situation in Petrograd is improved sufficiently for unrest to subside.
United States Woodrow Wilson issues a proclamation calling Congress into a special session on April 2.

March 21, 1918
Western Front Poised for Ludendorff’s offensive are Otto von Below’s 17th Army in the northern sector, Georg von der Marwitz’s 2nd Army in the center, and Oskar von Hutier’s 18th Army to the south. They are backed by 730 aircraft. Opposite them from north to south are Sir Henry Horne’s 1st Army, Sir Julian Byng’s 3rd Army, and Sir Hubert Gough’s 5th Army, backed by 550 aircraft. General Haig has agreed with Gough that his troops are likely to face the brunt of the attack, but has responded to Gough’s warnings and pleas by offering minimal reinforcements. The British have created “battle zones” extending from 1 to 2 miles behind their front lines as their main defensive positions.
At 5:00 AM, the Germans begin the largest and most concentrated artillery bombardment to this time, as 6000 guns rain death and destruction on Gough’s and Byng’s front lines and battle zones – a front 40 miles long. Intended to create gaps in the British defenses, the bombardment also delivers gas throughout their positions. For hours, the German guns alternate between the front lines and the battle zones. Then at 9:30 AM, with a morning fog settled on the battlefield, the storm troops race forward and quickly bypass the strongest British outposts, leaving the 2nd and 3rd waves to mop them up. Aided by the fog, the new tactics prove quite successful against the 5th Army’s center, as Hutier’s advancing troops virtually eliminate the defending 18th Corps. To the north, however, the Germans meet heavier resistance from the 3rd Army because General Byng has ignored Haig’s orders and moved more of his men into the frontline trenches. Elsewhere, British resistance improves as the fog lifts. At midday, both air forces take to the sky to duel for superiority over the battlefield. Despite the British troops’ strong resistance in some sectors, the Germans succeed in effecting an advance along the entire 40-mile front. As daylight fades, a quiet descends on the battlefield. The Germans move their reserves forward, but the British have no reserves close enough to provide reinforcements. During the night, troops on the edges of the salient at the center of 5th Army pull back. Other British troops bypassed during the day try to find their way to the rear, many losing their lives en route.
English Channel and North Sea German destroyers bombard Dunkirk, while British monitors bombard Ostend. There are scattered destroyer actions; 3 German ships are sunk.
Russia Unable to provide transport to bring the Czechoslovak Army Corps of the Russian Army to France, Foch has sent orders that the corps should move to Vladivostok. The corps now becomes known as the Czech Legion. Following the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk, with the support of Tomas Masaryk, leader of the Czechoslovak independence movement, who intends to use the corps to help achieve his goal of an autonomous state, and of General Foch, the corps had asked to join the Allies on the Western Front. Promised a million rubles by the French for the use of the corps, the Soviets release the corps to the tutelage of the French army.

March 21, 1919
Hungary There is a communist coup. Count Karolyi is forced to resign as premier and succeeded by Bela Kun. The Allies soon ask Rumania to oust the Communist regime from pwer. The Rumanians prepare an offensive, to begin on April 16. Its objective is the Tisza River.
Egypt Allenby is appointed High Commissioner.
India Harsh new legislation against sedition arouses massive opposition. There are riots, demonstrations and strikes. The Punjab is soon in a state of virtual revolt.

[palo5]

Originally Posted by jokerman

It was reputedly one million U.S. troops & not two million

Well, in June 1918 there were 900.000 and they were arriving at 10.000 per day according to this US .mil site

http://www.history.army.mil/books/AM...2/chapter1.htm

At the same time, the British had less than half a million soldiers in France, if British historian John Keegan can be believed. And the French also had much less than thought

I am old, but was not there and didn't count them - and I don't know how other people counted them

However, I absolutely believe that it was Americans that convinced German soldiers to stop fighting, because it was impossible for them to equal their manpower, and they knew they could not win

[knobby109]

Originally Posted by palo5

Well, in June 1918 there were 900.000 and they were arriving at 10.000 per day according to this US .mil site

http://www.history.army.mil/books/AM...2/chapter1.htm

At the same time, the British had less than half a million soldiers in France, if British historian John Keegan can be believed. And the French also had much less than thought

I am old, but was not there and didn't count them - and I don't know how other people counted them

However, I absolutely believe that it was Americans that convinced German soldiers to stop fighting, because it was impossible for them to equal their manpower, and they knew they could not win

It was a team effort, American troops played a part but only a part.As you suggest the American threat was critical in destroyng German morale.They had tried a massive last ditch attempt in March 1918 to roll back the Allies;at the time the British Army was horribly under strength as Lloyd George had kept many men in the UK .It was still able-just-to stem the attacks.One factor was when the Germans overran British positions thay found plentiful supplies, far better than their own yet they had been told that the British were exisiting on next to nothing.Also as was the case in that war the attacking force suffered higher casualties and one thing that Germany could no longer afford were heavy losses.The effect of this last desperate gamble was to exhaust the German Army and when the Allies counter attacked the Germans fell back until the end of hostilities.So the Americans were invaluable but most of their actions were against a demoralised and weakened German Army.

[george anson]

BBC's Timewatch series has remained one of the few quality BBC programmes to survive.

This thought provoking and saddening documentary focuses on the needless losses on the last day of the war and the sheer idiocy and vanity of the commanders who wasted their lives:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkxeiTo6ab0

One has to wonder too about the politicians who dithered about the armstice proffered to them by the Germans which could have finished the war earlier.

Pvt.George Price dided at 1058 two minutes before the armstice signed. What of the men killed at 0825 or 1026. None have need died or indeed any during that final week.

Yet more lives wasted, men scarcely remembered while their superiors earned medals and had statues commissioned and spoken warmly of.

[scoundrel]

On the subject of bad generals, France was very unfortunate in her senior commanders. Field Marshall Joseph Joffre was a deceitful and treacherous sac du merde, who over-rode the objections of Haig and Sir John French and insisted that the British mount their costly and failed offensive at Loos prematurely. In fact, at great cost in lives, the British Army broke the German lines at Loos and had a fleeting but huge opportunity to roll the Germans up like a carpet; but they were very short of artillery shells and their second wave/reserves were insufficient to drive home the breakthrough. All of this vindicates French and Haig's objections that their big push was not ready. Joffre tempted and pressured and politically manoevred the British into a strategic error which they of themselves would not have made. Joffre was also the "brains" behind the defence of the almost indefensible Franch salient at Verdun; 362,000 men dead essentially to save face, and not retreat from a deadly and terribly exposed position. The fact that Falkenhayn lost 332,000 men doesn't make this into a rip roaring Joffre success story. Joffre once again pressured the British into a premature offensive action to divert pressure which was threatening to overwhelm their positions at Verdun; this time, it was July 1st 1916 and the First Battle of the Somme.

Even worse than Joffre was Robert Nivelle, a man who was not competent to manage the business affairs of a hot dog stand. He was promoted by Joffre over Petain's head because Petain, even in those days, had a defeatist mentality, even though he was undeniably efficient. Joffre's mantra was to attack at all costs. In another era, he might have been a brilliant success, but in WW1, the defence had all the strong cards. George Patton in WW2 was notoriously aggressive, yet had exceptionally low casualties, because he operated a stop-loss principle; if any attack stalled in spite of initial shock, he shifted and attacked somewhere else. In WW1, generals like Nivelle merely threw wave after wave after wave of irreplaceable human beings at the same objective, presumably to soak up all the German ammunition and then capture some trench by climbing over an artificial ridge of the French dead. Nivelle also persevered with the failed "creeping barrage" tactic in which the first wave walked so close behind the forward progress of the artillery shells that whenever one dropped short, it automatically hit the advancing French; in WW1, 75,000 French soldiers are known to have been killed by friendly artillery and it was probably a lot more. The creeping barrage might have worked in 1915, but by April 1917, Germany had manufactured untold thousands of light machine guns, the Spandaus, which could be in position seconds after the barrage was gone and before the survivors of the French first wave could close in on them. Nivelle could not think of an alternative tactic (whereas Patton was a fountain of ideas, some brilliant, some plain daft, but never at a loss for something else to try instead). Therefore the failed creeping barrage human wave attacks went on for weeks throughout April 1917 and most of May, until the French troops realised that Nivelle was never going to admit failure and spontaneously mutinied, over fifty divisions refusing to attack yet again when they already knew the script.

I have always suspected that in WW1 the French army was rotten with politics of an extremely unsavoury, monarchist/fascist variety. Its conduct during the Dreyfuss Affair a decade earlier was quite disgusting. Dreyfuss took the blame for the spying and high treason of Major Esterhazy, who sold military secrets to the Germans for money. Even after all the facts were public, the French Army re-convicted Dreyfuss rather than admit to having framed him in the first place. You see, Dreyfuss was obviously guilty. He was the highest ranking Jewish soldier in the French army.