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View Poll Results: Leave The EU or stay in The EU?
Leave The EU. 349 53.61%
Stay in The EU. 259 39.78%
I don't care either way/won't be voting. 29 4.45%
I'd rather not say. 14 2.15%
Voters: 651. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-17-2018, 12:20 PM   #3981
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Allott View Post
There is a multitude of ideas proffered in this thread that could have been separated into offshoot threads, so there's little reason to start that malarkey now.

Indeed, there are many who saw the UK's subservience to the ECJ & ECHR as being the fundamental and critical issue underpinning their decision to vote one way or another, so suggesting it to be separate from the central theme here is rather naive.

.

I think it is naive to suggest we can ignore the judgements of the ECJ and ECHR without incurring large daily fines, eg


https://www.researchgate.net/post/Ho..._Infringements


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ghts_judgments


https://anfenglish.com/human-rights/...t-turkey-19347


If you are suggesting this is an additional reason for leaving the EU and ECHR then I would agree.
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Old 07-17-2018, 10:00 PM   #3982
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[QUOTE=judy84;4496677]
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Originally Posted by mokojono View Post


I did read the references though....also read my own posts. This was the 4th reference, by way of variation, one of which was removed for some reason.
So I repeat what I said:


The UK cannot deport people who fail to find a job if they are still seeking employment.


And an EU citizen who can support themselves without calling on the welfare system can also stay, eg beggars.


http://www.itv.com/news/update/2016-...in-six-months/
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/60...n-Union-judges


I notice your reference is from an article in 2014. In Sept 2015


Judges at the European Court of Justice ruled that it would be illegal for Britain to expel a jobless person from another EU country so long as they could demonstrate that they were looking for work. (see 2nd reference).
Maybe you should keep up to date.
Read your links carefully. They have to provide "compelling evidence", i.e. that they are interviewing and getting some positive feedback.

Clearly this is not "cannot be deported".
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Old 07-21-2018, 07:19 AM   #3983
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Old 07-21-2018, 08:06 AM   #3984
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Ouch that hurts

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Old 07-25-2018, 05:07 PM   #3985
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This is getting bizarre. From what I read, the UK is now worried about a "no deal" exit, which we're told could be horrific. How horrific? Well, the UK government is now preparing to stockpile emergency food & medicines, in case they can't import enough. This is not fake news, and officials up to the Prime Minister have admitted it

Shortages of food & medicines? Seriously? I did a double-take when I read that, and wondered if I had mistaken the UK for Gaza
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Old 07-25-2018, 05:55 PM   #3986
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Originally Posted by palo5 View Post
This is getting bizarre. From what I read, the UK is now worried about a "no deal" exit, which we're told could be horrific. How horrific? Well, the UK government is now preparing to stockpile food & medicines, in case they can't import enough. This is not fake news, and officials up to the Prime Minister have admitted it

Shortages of food & medicines? Seriously? I did a double-take when I read that, and wondered if I had mistaken the UK for Gaza
This come from Raab the new Brexit Sec and Leave fanatic so you can't just blame 'more project fear from remainers'

Yeah stockpile tins of beans and medicines, didn't see that painted on the side of their bus. The Brexit dream eh?
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Old 07-25-2018, 08:30 PM   #3987
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I think this all boils down to "in case they cannot import enough" HMG has to look at ALL options including the 100% no deal exit, if they didn't they would be pilloried for not doing so.

Let's be clear, a no deal scenario would only come about if the EU keeps rejecting every UK proposal and time runs out, there is talk about extending the two years but if by then we are not a long way down the path to some form of mutual consent would it be worth it?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-44950414

The EU is not blameless in this so let's not throw all the shit at the UK
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Old 07-25-2018, 09:48 PM   #3988
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Originally Posted by Wendigo View Post
Let's be clear, a no deal scenario would only come about if the EU keeps rejecting every UK proposal and time runs out (...) The EU is not blameless in this so let's not throw all the shit at the UK
The no-deal scenario only exists because the British government needed 2 full years to come up with a decent plan. The EU is the only negotiating party that has had the same clear goal since the Brexit referendum: to preserve the integrity of the single market.

The problem with the Cabinet is that they are not ready to accept the economic consequences of Brexit. It's now obvious that Brexit is an ideological project (rejecting the ECJ jurisdiction and EU laws, cutting European immigration by ending freedom of movement, stopping payments into the EU budget) that makes no sense from an economic perspective.

No deal is the most likely outcome because the UK still wants to have its cake and eat it. If you read the guidelines of the Cabinet's white paper, it clearly shows that the UK wants to retain some benefits of EU membership while undermining the single market.

For the record, Norway and Switzerland have access to the single market because they accept freedom of movement (yes, immigration) and contribute into the EU budget via grant schemes (which are like an access fee but don't cost as much as full EU membership).

In the white paper, the UK wants to have access to the single market for goods despite rejecting the 4 freedoms. That would be a better deal than what Norway and Switzerland have, and it could encourage EU members to leave the EU. May's 'common rulebook' (i.e. following EU standards for goods) is also a cunning way to avoid paying into the EU budget. The EU cannot accept that because it would destroy the integrity of the single market.

The UK has accepted that it will lose the passporting rights for financial services but it wants to sneak back into the single market for financial services by proposing a system of expanded equivalence or mutual recognition, which could offer the same benefits to the UK as the passporting rights. As a third country, the US only has a basic system of equivalence for financial services that does not give access to the single market. If the EU accepts May's proposal for financial services, the US and other third countries would ask for the same benefits, and that would again destroy the integrity of the single market.

May's customs proposal is a complete joke. Not just because the technology doesn't exist, but it also ignores the need for sanitary checks (avian flu, mad cow disease, swine flu) and would rob the EU of its sovereignty if the UK collects tariffs on behalf of the EU. Also it doesn't take into account the issue of smuggling.

In the white paper, the UK also wants to stay in some European agencies. The problem is that those agencies are policed by the ECJ. So if you reject the ECJ jurisdiction, there's no way you can participate in those agencies.

And finally, the Irish border. In a normal situation, there would be a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic for customs checks and sanitary checks. But because of the history of violence in Ireland and the Good Friday Agreement, the EU compromised and suggested the option of a sea border, with checks done in ports and airports. May claimed it would divide the UK as a country even though Northern Ireland already has different laws than England (i.e. abortion). The only option left for the EU is to quarantine Northern Ireland in order to perform the customs and sanitary checks while respecting the WTO rules. Basically, any trade between Northern Ireland and Europe would have to go through the Republic.

Some Brexiters believe that the UK should have access to the single market or at least have a deal because the UK is paying a divorce bill of about 40 billion. Sorry, but any leaving member must meet his liabilities and therefore pay a divorce bill. That divorce bill does not entitle the UK to a deal or give access to the single market. If the UK wants to blackmail the EU and refuses to pay the divorce bill, the UK's credit rating will collapse and other countries will be scared to make deals with such an unreliable partner.

Because May's white paper is threatening the integrity of the single market, the EU cannot accept those proposals and no deal has become the most likely scenario. May does not understand that the EU is fighting fo its survival.
And because the UK rejects the ECJ jurisdiction and the 4 freedoms, wants to make its own trade deals, and doesn't want to pay into the EU budget, the Canada-style deal is the only option left for May. Unfortunately, May is wasting time by stubbornly hoping to get the same benefits as Norway or Switzerland without accepting the same responsibilities or constraints.
So no deal.
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Old 07-25-2018, 09:57 PM   #3989
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Therefore if that is the case if the EU will not budge there is no point in carrying on what many of us have long felt are basically meaningless negotiations. Talking for talking sake.

I disagree about the divorce bill, if you want to use that analogy, if the split is irreconcilable then if we cannot have access to the children but the EU demand we still pay maintenance then I say no reason to pay out the whole of what the EU demand, I have long accepted we should pay a fair deal but it has to be on a quid pro quo basis.
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Old 07-25-2018, 10:08 PM   #3990
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Have not been in here for some time since nothing appeared to be happening. Then like with buses you wait ages for one and then two show up at the same time. This time the buses were named Davis and Doris

Got to feel somewhat anxious with St. Theresa now taking full charge of the final negotiations. Most men will not take kindly to a woman telling them (unless that woman has the name of Angela ) Raab had hardly got his feet under the desk when this bombshell was dropped.

And even if a deal is struck I fear a replay of those grand concessions that Call-me-Dave brought back. It might not even get through Parliament with the prospect of another GE.
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