Current Politics in the United Kingdom

[jacques22]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

But without being too biased, I think I can fairly point out that the EU needed to reconsider a lot of its own moves beforehand. For example, the business of refusing to enter into any trade negotiation until the Northern Ireland border issue was "settled" caused a lot of time wasting and, as we see, the issue wasn't "settled" after all. I never understood why we were being asked to give guarantees about the border in the absence of a proposed framework for the future trade relationship. The two things are integral to one another, as we now see, and to expect "guarantees" and refuse to talk without them was paradoxical.

Don't forget that the Republic of Ireland is staying in the club while the UK is leaving the club. So from the EU perspective it makes sense to give the priority to the Republic of Ireland over the UK. That's why preserving the Good Friday Agreement is more important for the EU than discussing the future trade relationship with the UK.

Also, England and the UK in general are known as "perfide Albion" in France. I don't think you need a translation to guess the meaning. If the UK gets a trade agreement before the Irish border issue is solved, what will prevent the Brits from telling the EU to sod off with the Good Friday Agreement?

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by jacques22

Don't forget that the Republic of Ireland is staying in the club while the UK is leaving the club. So from the EU perspective it makes sense to give the priority to the Republic of Ireland over the UK. That's why preserving the Good Friday Agreement is more important for the EU than discussing the future trade relationship with the UK.

Also, England and the UK in general are known as "perfide Albion" in France. I don't think you need a translation to guess the meaning. If the UK gets a trade agreement before the Irish border issue is solved, what will prevent the Brits from telling the EU to sod off with the Good Friday Agreement?

Logically, the implementation of a trade agreement could be suspended if Britain did not properly engage with a process to maintain a free passage of goods and services across the border. But the British side has some issues with the EU side as well, especially concerning the so-called "free movement of labour". That is also a problem to be settled when the Northern Ireland border is being discussed.

As for giving priority to the Irish Republic, the EU needs to remember that Britain does not need to have a deal with the EU. Britain would do much better to strike a deal than to not strike a deal. But the lack of a deal would be extremely serious for the Irish Republic, yes indeed. There will most certainly be a hard border then. So I would cite this as another example of the EU getting its tactics wrong.

[jacques22]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

As for giving priority to the Irish Republic, the EU needs to remember that Britain does not need to have a deal with the EU. Britain would do much better to strike a deal than to not strike a deal. But the lack of a deal would be extremely serious for the Irish Republic, yes indeed. There will most certainly be a hard border then. So I would cite this as another example of the EU getting its tactics wrong.

You're wrong on that one. The UK does need a deal with the EU, because the 'no deal' scenario means the UK gets automatically kicked out of the 750 plus treaties the EU has signed. You definitely don't want to trade with the rest of the world on WTO terms and the infamous 'most favoured nation' status. Here's a tweet that sums up the situation: https://www.docdroid.net/m3YvOS5/bre...th-revised.pdf

Also, it's not about tactics. It's about protecting the interests of another EU member (the Republic of Ireland). The EU will fight tooth and nail to preserve the Good Friday Agreement. The Brits haven't shown any ounce of seriousness on the Irish border issue. From the moment the UK leaves the SM and the CU, there has to be sanitary checks on food and animals. And those checks can't be replaced by technology, they can only be performed by humans. Yet, the UK has offered no decent solution for those sanitary checks without going back to a hard border (please, don't mention MaxFac, that was such a pathetic joke).

[otokonomidori]

Originally Posted by jacques22

...your lies.....

Thanks for the caricature. I've been living in the UK for years. So far, Sturgeon and the SNP have been one of the few British parties being reasonable in those Brexit negotiations,

I'm sure you wouldn't call me a liar if we were face to face so why do it here ? No need to be rude.

You wouldn't think the SNP were reasonable if you stayed up here for a while and experienced the utter mess they've made of running the country because of their single issue monomania.

They regard the current Brexit business as simply an opportunity to try to push their independence agenda regardless of the fact that the majority of Scots oppose independence and don't want another referendum on the subject.

[Meini Again]

Originally Posted by otokonomidori

I'm sure you wouldn't call me a liar if we were face to face so why do it here ? No need to be rude.

You wouldn't think the SNP were reasonable if you stayed up here for a while and experienced the utter mess they've made of running the country because of their single issue monomania.

They regard the current Brexit business as simply an opportunity to try to push their independence agenda regardless of the fact that the majority of Scots oppose independence and don't want another referendum on the subject.

YES !



We are back into the ages of 'Local Warlords'

We have debate, we have discussion ~ seemingly

We have Business Clothes and Social Media to cover our Tribal Intents.

An American Economist said 18 Months ago, that "Tribalism" was the biggest threat to Democracy... he predicted Trump's direction... quite perfectly.... though I don't think Trump's advisors planned it, but just 'GRABBED' it.... cos it worked

Now we have a similar scenario. Whether worked out or opportunist..who knows???
TRIBALISM

Basically

[Wendigo]

A Brexit related point UKIP was a single issue party, sure they bolted on other stuff Frankenstein style but their sole aim was to get us a referendum so the British people could do what we have not been able to do in over 40 years, vote on remaining in the mutated EEC or the EU as it is now known.

Mission accomplished, we had a vote and the majority of voters ignored the vested interests and doom-mongers and voted to leave; yes UKIP were largely a protest vote choice at general election time but came to the forefront in recent EU elections. That is one occasion where a single issue party achieved its purpose. How it is worked out in practice is up to Maggie-Lite in number 10

[vinceprince]

Originally Posted by Wendigo

How it is worked out in practice is up to Maggie-Lite in number 10

Wrong, we are a Parliamentary system not a dictatorship or Presidential system, in the end it will be for Parliament to decide and Parliament only.

Even if she gets a deal (which seems increasingly unlikely) it still has to get through Parliament. I hope when we end up in an indefinite de facto customs union you'll remain equally supportive of our constitution and democratic system.

[Wendigo]

Originally Posted by vinceprince

Wrong, we are a Parliamentary system not a dictatorship or Presidential system, in the end it will be for Parliament to decide and Parliament only.

Even if she gets a deal (which seems increasingly unlikely) it still has to get through Parliament. I hope when we end up in an indefinite de facto customs union you'll remain equally supportive of our constitution and democratic system.

Why of course, just as all remain voters have got behind the exit cause

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by jacques22

Also, it's not about tactics. It's about protecting the interests of another EU member (the Republic of Ireland). The EU will fight tooth and nail to preserve the Good Friday Agreement. The Brits haven't shown any ounce of seriousness on the Irish border issue. From the moment the UK leaves the SM and the CU, there has to be sanitary checks on food and animals. And those checks can't be replaced by technology, they can only be performed by humans. Yet, the UK has offered no decent solution for those sanitary checks without going back to a hard border (please, don't mention MaxFac, that was such a pathetic joke).

The hard Brexit, the "no deal" Brexit, will lead directly to a hard border and the probable failure of the Good Friday Agreement. We British will part company just the same and we will leave the EU side to rejoice in their successful protection of the interests of the Republic of Ireland. You may well find that the British side is deadly serious about the border issue, if the EU perseveres in maintaining unrealistic conditions, such as permanent membership of the Customs Union.

This is a tawdry and unedifying spectacle. Both sides have contributed to this mess. It is as though brinkmanship and willy-waving are thought to be clever. I am embarrassed for my own country when I see how all this needless delay and procrastination has led us to such an impasse. But I do believe the border issue is there for the settlement; it is the EU side who are not prepared to make the necessary compromise, after the British side has already conceded a lot. If they insist on Britain being permanently in the Customs Union, that will not fly here and the EU side ought to know this.

[seany65]

I'm not sure I understand why the EU are so bothered about any Irish border-wasn't there one in the 80's even though both the Rep and UK were in the EU, and did the EU have anything at all to do with the Good Friday Agreement?