The Military History Thread - Page 521

**Ennath** · May 14th, 2018, 12:33 PM

May 14, 1955
The Warsaw Pact

In the early 1950s, Czechoslovak leadership, fearful of a rearmed Germany, sought to create a security pact with East Germany and Poland. These states protested strongly against the re-militarization of West Germany. Soviet leaders, like many European countries on both sides of the Iron Curtain, feared Germany being once again a military power and a direct threat. The terrible consequences of German militarism remained a fresh memory among the Soviets and Eastern Europeans. Soviet leadership also noted that civil unrest was on the rise in Eastern European countries (see posting, East German Uprising) and determined that a unified, multilateral political and military alliance would tie Eastern European capitals more closely to Moscow. As the Soviet Union already had bilateral treaties with all of its satellites, the Pact has been long considered superfluous, and because of the rushed way in which it was conceived, NATO officials labeled it as a “cardboard castle”.

In March 1954, the USSR requested admission to NATO. The Soviet request arose in the aftermath of the Berlin Conference of January-February 1954. Soviet foreign minister Molotov made proposals to have Germany reunified and elections for a pan-German government, under conditions of withdrawal of the four powers' armies and German neutrality, but all were refused by the other foreign ministers, John Dulles (USA), Anthony Eden (UK) and Georges Bidault (France). Proposals for the reunification of Germany were nothing new: earlier on March 20, 1952, talks about German reunification, initiated by the so-called Stalin Note, ended after the Western powers insisted that a unified Germany should be free to join the European Defense Community. James Dunn (USA), who met in Paris with Eden, Chancellor Konrad Adenauer and Robert Schuman (France), affirmed that "the object should be to avoid discussion with the Russians and to press on the European Defense Community".

Consequently, Molotov, fearing that the EDC would be directed in the future against the USSR, made a proposal for a General European Treaty on Collective Security in Europe "open to all European States without regard as to their social systems" which would have included the unified Germany (thus making the EDC - perceived by the USSR as a threat - unusable). The proposal would also have excluded American participation in Europe. Eden, Dulles and Bidault opposed the proposal. One month later, the proposed European Treaty was rejected not only by supporters of the EDC but also by Western opponents of the EDC (like French Gaullist leader Palewski) who perceived it as "unacceptable in its present form because it excludes the USA from participation in the collective security system in Europe". The Soviets then agreed to US involvement, provided the USSR was admitted to NATO. British Gen. Hastings Ismay, typified the attitude in the West that "the Soviet request to join NATO is like an unrepentant burglar requesting to join the police force".

Memories of the Nazi occupation were still strong, and the rearmament of Germany was feared by France, too. On August 30, 1954, the French Parliament rejected the EDC, thus ensuring its failure and blocking a major objective of US policy towards Europe: to associate Germany militarily with the West. The US Department of State started to elaborate alternatives: Germany would be invited to join NATO or, in the case of French obstructionism, strategies to circumvent a French veto would be implemented in order to obtain a German rearmament outside NATO.

On October 23, 1954, the admission of the Federal Republic of Germany to the North Atlantic Pact was finally decided. In November, the USSR requested a new European Security Treaty, in order to make a final attempt to not have a remilitarized West Germany potentially opposed to the Soviet Union, with no success.

On May 14, 1955, the USSR and 7 satellite governments (Albania, Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia, East Germany, Hungary, Poland, and Romania) "reaffirming their desire for the establishment of a system of European collective security based on the participation of all European states irrespective of their social and political systems" established the Warsaw Pact, declaring that: "a remilitarized Western Germany and the integration of the latter in the North-Atlantic bloc [...] increase the danger of another war and constitutes a threat to the national security of the peaceable states; [...] in these circumstances the peaceable European states must take the necessary measures to safeguard their security". East Germany was allowed to re-arm by the Soviet Union and the National People's Army was established as the armed forces of the country to counter the rearmament of West Germany.

For 36 years, NATO and the Warsaw Pact never directly waged war against each other in Europe; the United States and the Soviet Union and their respective allies implemented strategic policies aimed at the containment of each other in Europe, while working and fighting for influence within the wider Cold War on the international stage. The multi-national Communist armed forces' sole joint action was the invasion of Czechoslovakia in August 1968. All member countries, with the exception of Romania and Albania, participated.

Beginning at the Cold War's conclusion, in late 1989, popular civil and political public discontent forced the Communist governments of the Warsaw Treaty countries from power, while independent national politics made feasible with perestroika and glasnost induced institutional collapse of Communist government in the USSR. On February 25, 1991, the Warsaw Pact was declared disbanded at a meeting of defense and foreign ministers from remaining Pact countries meeting in Hungary. On July 1, Czechoslovak President Vaclav Havel formally ended the 1955 Warsaw Treaty Organization of Friendship, Cooperation and Mutual Assistance and so disestablished the Warsaw Treaty after 36 years of military alliance with the USSR. In fact, the treaty was de facto disbanded in December 1989 during the violent revolution in Romania, which toppled the communist government, without military intervention from other member states. The USSR disestablished itself in December 1991.

**Ernesto75** · May 14th, 2018, 04:49 PM

It would be interesting to discuss the consequences of the Roman defeat of Tutoburg Forest (the Varus disaster under Emperor Augustus) upon modern Germany.

Some historians seem to think it lead to the war of 1870 and the first and the second world war.

Frankly I wonder ?

**KissArmy** · May 14th, 2018, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ernesto75

It would be interesting to discuss the consequences of the Roman defeat of Tutoburg Forest (the Varus disaster under Emperor Augustus) upon modern Germany.

Some historians seem to think it lead to the war of 1870 and the first and the second world war.

Frankly I wonder ?

No, I think that's stretching it a bit. Even if Varus' legions had succeeded in Germany, I think the Empire would have pulled out eventually. Like they did in Britannia, Dacia, and others regions.

**Mal Hombre** · May 14th, 2018, 06:59 PM

I agree,Even if the Romans had created a united Germania,It would probably have fragmented after they left,Same as Britain and even Italy.There would been no heroic folk memory to reunite Germany in the 1850's but Germany would have been reunited.

**Ernesto75** · May 14th, 2018, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ernesto75

Some historians seem to think it lead to the war of 1870 and the first and the second world war.

Perhaps that was badly presented :

I meant some historians explain that the Varus disaster created a trauma in Rome.

Emperor Augustus was very affected; it is related that for a while he said weeping : 'Varus, give me back my legions'.

The defeated legions were never reconstituted and the Roman frontier in Germany was displaced on the western side, while the Roman Empire extended further.

What's more, some historians think this had consequences on the German mind differently from the other nations being under Roman rule.
These historians think that whitout the Varus disaster there would not be
- the 1870 war beetween France and Germany;
- no WW I;
- no WWII.

This is the point I tried to show.

**palo5** · May 14th, 2018, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ernesto75

It would be interesting to discuss the consequences of the Roman defeat of Teutoburg Forest (the Varus disaster under Emperor Augustus) upon modern Germany.

Some historians seem to think it lead to the war of 1870 and the first and the second world war.

Frankly I wonder ?

The battle in 9 AD set the limit of Roman expansion in the North, and created what some call the "European fault line" between north and south. Many argue it still exists today

I follow this, and believe it was concreted when Emperor Karl der Grosse (Charlemagne / Charles the Great) died in 814 and his empire was divided along similar lines -- the Latin south and Germanic north

Not everyone agrees, but I see significant differences between north and south Europe, and think history accounts for many of them

crinolynne · May 14th, 2018, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by palo5

Not everyone agrees, but I see significant differences between north and south Europe, and think history accounts for many of them

I think the Alps and the Rhine might have something to do with it.

**palo5** · May 14th, 2018, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crinolynne

I think the Alps and the Rhine might have something to do with it.

Yes, geographical obstacles are always important. If you go beyond them and dramatically lose, it will be bad, and you will withdraw to what you think you can hold

**Mal Hombre** · May 14th, 2018, 09:39 PM

Germanicus went back across the Rhine and recovered the lost Legion's standards.By that time, I think Hermann had already been murdered like Alaric three centuries or so later.

**palo5** · May 14th, 2018, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mal Hombre

Germanicus went back across the Rhine and recovered the lost Legion's standards.By that time, I think Hermann had already been murdered like Alaric three centuries or so later.

Sounds like fake news to me. Who else could have said that? "Our bodies failed, but our flags and beliefs persist". Do you believe it?

May 14th, 2018, 04:49 PM	#5202
Ernesto75 Vintage Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Planet Earth Posts: 1,106 Thanks: 12,732 Thanked 21,648 Times in 1,096 Posts	About Germany It would be interesting to discuss the consequences of the Roman defeat of Tutoburg Forest (the Varus disaster under Emperor Augustus) upon modern Germany. Some historians seem to think it lead to the war of 1870 and the first and the second world war. Frankly I wonder ?

May 14th, 2018, 06:59 PM	#5204
Mal Hombre El Super Moderador Join Date: May 2009 Location: Adoptive Monkey Hanger Posts: 58,134 Thanks: 772,635 Thanked 855,681 Times in 57,565 Posts	I agree,Even if the Romans had created a united Germania,It would probably have fragmented after they left,Same as Britain and even Italy.There would been no heroic folk memory to reunite Germany in the 1850's but Germany would have been reunited. __________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. If in doubt, Just ask Yourself What Would Max Do ? It is a porn site,But its a Classy porn site. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

May 14th, 2018, 09:39 PM	#5209
Mal Hombre El Super Moderador Join Date: May 2009 Location: Adoptive Monkey Hanger Posts: 58,134 Thanks: 772,635 Thanked 855,681 Times in 57,565 Posts	Germanicus went back across the Rhine and recovered the lost Legion's standards.By that time, I think Hermann had already been murdered like Alaric three centuries or so later. __________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. If in doubt, Just ask Yourself What Would Max Do ? It is a porn site,But its a Classy porn site. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

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May 14th, 2018, 12:33 PM	#5201
Ennath Vintage Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 6,813 Thanks: 26,898 Thanked 80,767 Times in 6,812 Posts	May 14, 1955 The Warsaw Pact In the early 1950s, Czechoslovak leadership, fearful of a rearmed Germany, sought to create a security pact with East Germany and Poland. These states protested strongly against the re-militarization of West Germany. Soviet leaders, like many European countries on both sides of the Iron Curtain, feared Germany being once again a military power and a direct threat. The terrible consequences of German militarism remained a fresh memory among the Soviets and Eastern Europeans. Soviet leadership also noted that civil unrest was on the rise in Eastern European countries (see posting, East German Uprising) and determined that a unified, multilateral political and military alliance would tie Eastern European capitals more closely to Moscow. As the Soviet Union already had bilateral treaties with all of its satellites, the Pact has been long considered superfluous, and because of the rushed way in which it was conceived, NATO officials labeled it as a “cardboard castle”. In March 1954, the USSR requested admission to NATO. The Soviet request arose in the aftermath of the Berlin Conference of January-February 1954. Soviet foreign minister Molotov made proposals to have Germany reunified and elections for a pan-German government, under conditions of withdrawal of the four powers' armies and German neutrality, but all were refused by the other foreign ministers, John Dulles (USA), Anthony Eden (UK) and Georges Bidault (France). Proposals for the reunification of Germany were nothing new: earlier on March 20, 1952, talks about German reunification, initiated by the so-called Stalin Note, ended after the Western powers insisted that a unified Germany should be free to join the European Defense Community. James Dunn (USA), who met in Paris with Eden, Chancellor Konrad Adenauer and Robert Schuman (France), affirmed that "the object should be to avoid discussion with the Russians and to press on the European Defense Community". Consequently, Molotov, fearing that the EDC would be directed in the future against the USSR, made a proposal for a General European Treaty on Collective Security in Europe "open to all European States without regard as to their social systems" which would have included the unified Germany (thus making the EDC - perceived by the USSR as a threat - unusable). The proposal would also have excluded American participation in Europe. Eden, Dulles and Bidault opposed the proposal. One month later, the proposed European Treaty was rejected not only by supporters of the EDC but also by Western opponents of the EDC (like French Gaullist leader Palewski) who perceived it as "unacceptable in its present form because it excludes the USA from participation in the collective security system in Europe". The Soviets then agreed to US involvement, provided the USSR was admitted to NATO. British Gen. Hastings Ismay, typified the attitude in the West that "the Soviet request to join NATO is like an unrepentant burglar requesting to join the police force". Memories of the Nazi occupation were still strong, and the rearmament of Germany was feared by France, too. On August 30, 1954, the French Parliament rejected the EDC, thus ensuring its failure and blocking a major objective of US policy towards Europe: to associate Germany militarily with the West. The US Department of State started to elaborate alternatives: Germany would be invited to join NATO or, in the case of French obstructionism, strategies to circumvent a French veto would be implemented in order to obtain a German rearmament outside NATO. On October 23, 1954, the admission of the Federal Republic of Germany to the North Atlantic Pact was finally decided. In November, the USSR requested a new European Security Treaty, in order to make a final attempt to not have a remilitarized West Germany potentially opposed to the Soviet Union, with no success. On May 14, 1955, the USSR and 7 satellite governments (Albania, Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia, East Germany, Hungary, Poland, and Romania) "reaffirming their desire for the establishment of a system of European collective security based on the participation of all European states irrespective of their social and political systems" established the Warsaw Pact, declaring that: "a remilitarized Western Germany and the integration of the latter in the North-Atlantic bloc [...] increase the danger of another war and constitutes a threat to the national security of the peaceable states; [...] in these circumstances the peaceable European states must take the necessary measures to safeguard their security". East Germany was allowed to re-arm by the Soviet Union and the National People's Army was established as the armed forces of the country to counter the rearmament of West Germany. For 36 years, NATO and the Warsaw Pact never directly waged war against each other in Europe; the United States and the Soviet Union and their respective allies implemented strategic policies aimed at the containment of each other in Europe, while working and fighting for influence within the wider Cold War on the international stage. The multi-national Communist armed forces' sole joint action was the invasion of Czechoslovakia in August 1968. All member countries, with the exception of Romania and Albania, participated. Beginning at the Cold War's conclusion, in late 1989, popular civil and political public discontent forced the Communist governments of the Warsaw Treaty countries from power, while independent national politics made feasible with perestroika and glasnost induced institutional collapse of Communist government in the USSR. On February 25, 1991, the Warsaw Pact was declared disbanded at a meeting of defense and foreign ministers from remaining Pact countries meeting in Hungary. On July 1, Czechoslovak President Vaclav Havel formally ended the 1955 Warsaw Treaty Organization of Friendship, Cooperation and Mutual Assistance and so disestablished the Warsaw Treaty after 36 years of military alliance with the USSR. In fact, the treaty was de facto disbanded in December 1989 during the violent revolution in Romania, which toppled the communist government, without military intervention from other member states. The USSR disestablished itself in December 1991.