Current Politics in the United Kingdom

[palo5]

The Irish border is the biggest problem. This can not be solved without the British making a major concession. I understand their difficulty, but if the British can't make the concession for the good of its people, it's hard to see how a deal can be reached. The EU has offered a solution. I think the UK government should use their spin machines to make the solution look acceptable for the common good, and accept it

The other notable problem I see is with security and EU data. If the UK is not subject to EU law or court oversight, it can't be given top-level access to sensitive data. Not as in the past, at any rate. I know the British rate themselves very highly in this area, and think no one can possibly do without them, but clearly the EU think they have all bases covered. I think the EU are right about this

They probably get better information from the Russians

[seany65]

Originally Posted by palo5

Hehehe!

With increasing population you get increased tax revenue, so paying for it should not be a problem, unless you have a plague outbreak or something

The question here is why you can't train local people, and why your "foreign" staff are deserting you so fast

Only if the new population get jobs that pay wages high enough for them to pay tax in the first place. If they are low enough to need 'in work benefits' or 'tax credits' then they aren't quite the boon to the Govts. tax income as they are said to be.

Will you please go to third world countries and tell them they should allow massive immigration into them so that their economies can grow at a high rate, they need it more than we do.

No?

[seany65]

Originally Posted by jacques22

Immigration is not a problem for the NHS and the UK in general. If you check the stats for EU members, the UK is in the middle with 9 immigrants per 1,000 inhabitants in 2016. There are a dozen EU countries that have to absorb more immigrants: http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statist...ion_statistics

In fact, EU immigration has been declining in the UK over the past couple of years, because of May's more aggressive immigration policy as well as because of the EU expats' disillusion with Brexit. Yet, the NHS problems are growing, not diminishing, which completely contradicts the point you are making.

Also, if you look at the profile of EU expats, most of them are young workers who want to save money before returning to their home country to retire. They might get injured (at work or in an accident) and be treated by the NHS, but the costs are more than covered by the taxes and social contributions paid by those EU expats.

On the other hand, if you look at the profile of British expats, that's a different story. A lot of them are retiring in France, Spain, Portugal or Malta and they cost a lot of money to those countries' healthcare system, because by definition older people cost more than young people (i.e. the elderly are more likely to suffer long-term illnesses than young people). Yet, no one is complaining about the cost of British expats for the European healthcare systems.

While Brexiters see immigration as the problem for almost everything, EU members are lucid enough to recognise that uncontrolled immigration is a problem that can destabilise a country's social fabric, but they won't blame immigrants for problems of their own making, whether it's education, housing, health care or employment.

Just because other countries have higher levels of immigration doesn't mean that high levels of immigration to Britain doesn't cause any problems. You yourself have just admitted that immigration can cause problems, although you reference Brits living in the EU.

None of what you've written goes against what I wrote in my post that you refer to. You don't say that the population in Britain is getting less, you merely state that immigration has been declining. My point is that the NHS has to grow at least at the rate of the population just to stay still.

If the EU members are lucid enough to recognize that uncontrolled immigration is a problem that can destalibise a country's social fabric, why the hell do the EU members allow thew EU to force them to accept uncontrolled immigration from one member to the other?

Could it be the EU's agenda to turn the EU into a single country?

Also, what was merkel thinking when she said all 'refugees' are welcome in Germany? Isn't that 'uncontrolled immigration'?

I may be a brexiter, but I don't blame immigration for all our problems. I know we Brits are quite capable of causing our own problems, thank you.

[recluce]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

There are options for retaliating which would hurt the EU a great deal and I merely point this out for the benefit of some discussion members who appear to think Britain is defenceless and the EU will be able to shit on Britain with impunity.

Which "options", pray tell?

Other than that, the route appears clear by now. No deal, no waivers, no favours. Hard Brexit and let the UK reap what they sowed. If the Brexiters are indeed right, that harvest should be sweet fruit that will make life in the UK so much better.

[palo5]

Originally Posted by seany65

Could it be the EU's agenda to turn the EU into a single country?

No, it needs a federation. But it can never be a country. Countries are different

[palo5]

Originally Posted by seany65

Only if the new population get jobs that pay wages high enough for them to pay tax in the first place. If they are low enough to need 'in work benefits' or 'tax credits' then they aren't quite the boon to the Govts. tax income as they are said to be

I don't know what you mean. Where I live, everything is taxed, even benefits. There is no threshold for income tax, we all pay it. And everyone pays the unavoidable 22% VAT, so your problem is what?

[jacques22]

Originally Posted by seany65

None of what you've written goes against what I wrote in my post that you refer to. You don't say that the population in Britain is getting less, you merely state that immigration has been declining. My point is that the NHS has to grow at least at the rate of the population just to stay still.

In your previous post, you said that the NHS problems are getting worse because of the "totally uncontrolled immigration of hundreds of thousands of EU citizens."
The NHS problems can't get worse because of EU expats for two reasons:
1. To have 9 immigrants per 1,000 inhabitants, according to the 2016 figures, is relatively controlled immigration. And most of the EU expats are healthy and contributing to the NHS via taxes and social contributions.
2. EU immigration is declining even though the UK is still an EU member (https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulat...november2017); expect EU immigration to further decline when Brexit becomes effective. If EU immigration is declining, how can the NHS problems get worse because of the supposed burden of immigration? On the contrary, the NHS is facing problems because they don't have enough EU workers as the Guardian article pointed out.
Same story with British farms: they desperately need EU workers as fruit-pickers because Brits don't want to do those jobs (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8469806.html).

Originally Posted by seany65

If the EU members are lucid enough to recognize that uncontrolled immigration is a problem that can destalibise a country's social fabric, why the hell do the EU members allow thew EU to force them to accept uncontrolled immigration from one member to the other?

Intra-EU immigration is not a problem. The real problem here has been the flow of refugees from war-torn countries (Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Yemen, etc...).
Hungary, Poland, and other EU countries who want to curb immigration, never complained about EU expats because their numbers are quite low and they contribute to society and the economy.
EU members only started complaining about immigration when they saw refugees and economic migrants coming from Africa, the Middle East and Asia. The EU was not prepared for that, they had no policy to deal with that kind of situation.
Obviously, freedom of movement only applies to EU citizens, and not to those refugees and economic migrants. But in the political debate about immigration, some politicians have had no shame in mixing the EU concept of freedom movement with images of refugees and economic migrants travelling across Europe. So even if the UK pulls out of the EU and rejects the 4 freedoms, it won't prevent those non-EU immigrants from trying to cross the Channel and live in the UK.

[haroldeye]

Of course we have been fed a lie.

German Chancellor Angela Merkel defended her controversial decision to admit over a million refugees in 2015, and insisted she had no regrets, saying she would take the big decisions “the same way again.”

In an interview published in the Welt am Sonntag newspaper four weeks before Germany’s September 24 federal election, Merkel said she had decided to open borders to migrants fleeing war and turmoil in Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan because the situation was “extraordinary.” At the time, Germany took in more than 1 million refugees.

“It was an extraordinary situation and I made my decision based on what I thought was right from a political and humanitarian standpoint,” she told the Welt am Sonntag.

“I’d make all the important decisions of 2015 the same way again,” Merkel added.

However, she admitted that “for some time we didn’t have enough control” at Germany’s border.

[otokonomidori]

Originally Posted by ********

No.

Everyone pays in National Insurance contributions,

Only those in work pay NI.

[Wendigo]

Originally Posted by otokonomidori

Only those in work pay NI.

As oto states NI is not a universal payment, from HMG's own website

https://www.gov.uk/national-insurance

You pay National Insurance if you’re 16 or over and either:
an employee earning above £162 a week
self-employed and making a profit of £6,205 or more a year

If you’re employed, you stop paying Class 1 National Insurance when you reach the State Pension age.