Communism. Good or bad. What do you really know about Communism?

[badman999]

Originally Posted by Estreeter

Where did all that technology and knowledge come from, Nazi scientists as an example, what about all the electronics needed, invented by the west.

They invent nothing, just leech and copy.

Even needed the executed Rosenbergs to speed up atomic weapons capability.

Yeah, the Russians did "great at the space race" but couldn't feed their people. Hardly a ringing endorsement.

[RuriRuri]

Originally Posted by Estreeter

Where did all that technology and knowledge come from, Nazi scientists as an example, what about all the electronics needed, invented by the west.

I think that's a bit of a reductive view. While the USSR had Operation Osoaviakhim and more or less abducted two and half thousand Nazi scientists, engineers and technicians, the US had Operation Paperclip where over a thousand a half scientists and engineers were captured and brought over stateside. In fairness both sides saw the need to do this, both recovered V2 technology and revered engineered for their own purposes.


Let's be honest, Wernher von Braun was key in the Apollo program that got men to the moon.


And regardless of whether both sides used Nazi engineering and science, it was the USSR that had all the firsts; the first satellite, the first animal into orbit, the first human in space, the first woman in space, the first to actually land on the surface of the moon via an unmanned lander, the first image of the far side of the moon, the first space rover on the Moon three years prior to Armstrong walking on the moon, the first interplanetary probes to Venus and Mars and first probe landings on those planets and the first space station.


Both super powers had an equal opportunity to do these things and USSR got their first. I mean, god knows how many people died in the process, especially in rocket explosions on the ground or sent off to Siberia when they didn't get results and who really knows how many dead cosmonauts there are. At least the US couldn't hide it when they cocked up.

Originally Posted by badman999

Yeah, the Russians did "great at the space race" but couldn't feed their people. Hardly a ringing endorsement.

Well that's the thing isn't it? Great achievements at the expense of their own citizens.

[foxbat1]

Originally Posted by BondJmsBond

^ lol, classless society with a privileged class due to merit.

If it's due to merit then it's not a class, since everyone has equal access to things like education and opportunities, and there is no wealth to speak of.

That said there does seem to be some concept of inheritance, as the Picard vineyards have been in that family for centuries.

[foxbat1]

Originally Posted by Estreeter

Where did all that technology and knowledge come from, Nazi scientists as an example, what about all the electronics needed, invented by the west.

They invent nothing, just leech and copy.

The Nazi scientists were of course operating under semi-communist conditions, i.e. state funded due to the war. The UK went very socialist during the war too, and afterwards elected a socialist Labour government to continue the benefits of it. We got the NHS and many other very good things out of that.

As for the technology, it wasn't copied from the West. It was developed in the USSR, and some of it was better than ours. It's a shame we couldn't work together, it might have avoided the Apollo 1 fire because the USSR had a very similar incident some time before that.

Their space shuttle was not a copy of the US one either, it was a very different, larger vehicle with a completely different mission profile. No main engine at all, a huge improvement and cost saving over the US design.

[BondJmsBond]

Those lauding and apparently longing for the return of pervasive dictatorial oppression, purges, gulags, mass starvation, rampant murder....what are you thinking?
That you'll be the ones at the top?
Laughing whilst you sentence your political enemies to death in labor camps?

Or are you thinking of a completely equal society where it's milk and honey for everyone and your days are spent in joyous plenty and happy comradeship?

All I can say is you're either deluded megalomaniacs or you've never opened a history book.

[foxbat1]

Originally Posted by BondJmsBond

Those lauding and apparently longing for the return of pervasive dictatorial oppression, purges, gulags, mass starvation, rampant murder....what are you thinking?

On the other hand, capitalist Israel is committing genocide right in front of us, documenting their own crimes on social media, and the other capitalist states are continuing to supply them with the weapons they need to do it.

Maybe it's not the economic model, maybe it's the quality of the democracy. I note that social democracies seem to get less caught up in crimes against humanity, as a general rule.

[Estreeter]

Originally Posted by RuriRuri

Well that's the thing isn't it? Great achievements at the expense of their own citizens.

Originally Posted by foxbat1

USSR

You can all point out achievements and things but at the end of the day, it all collapsed and always fails and many times at cost of starvation, imprisonment, poverty, misery and on and on

Take it from me, no amount of bullshitting and sugar coating gets past me, one who's family escaped communism in the 1950's to live in the west.

I can and always will repeat my parents, uncles and aunts stories to in any even minor way aid destroying it's evil.

[foxbat1]

Originally Posted by RuriRuri

And regardless of whether both sides used Nazi engineering and science, it was the USSR that had all the firsts; the first satellite, the first animal into orbit, the first human in space, the first woman in space, the first to actually land on the surface of the moon via an unmanned lander, the first image of the far side of the moon, the first space rover on the Moon three years prior to Armstrong walking on the moon, the first interplanetary probes to Venus and Mars and first probe landings on those planets and the first space station.

Interesting that they had a woman in space in the 1960s, but it took the US until the 1980s to send one up. The US did in fact have women training as astronauts along side the Mercury men, but due to sexism never gave any of them the opportunity to fly. Not that the USSR wasn't sexist as well, but it's interesting none the less.

Originally Posted by RuriRuri

Well that's the thing isn't it? Great achievements at the expense of their own citizens.

That was true in the US as well though. There were protests against the Apollo programme because people felt that the immense cost would have been better spent on domestic issues. It was also the height of the civil rights movement, white people going to the moon while Black people didn't even enjoy the same basic freedoms and opportunities.

Just one example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitey_on_the_Moon

My point is really that when pointing fingers it's important to remember that many of our own countries are pretty bad too.