Current Politics in the United Kingdom - Page 19

TCrout · May 13th, 2016, 09:09 PM

I don't understand why the Leave camp think that the IMF are scare mongering. Why would that be made up? This will be a seismic shift economically if we do leave the big players will want to deal with New EU first, then deal with Uk. We're at the back of the queue....

PS: Don't the middle class Brexiters realise that their Audis, Bosch, Le Creuset and Fiat 500s will all go up in price? Surely FAR more persuasive arguments to stay....

**jokerman** · May 13th, 2016, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TCrout

I don't understand why the Leave camp think that the IMF are scare mongering. Why would that be made up? This will be a seismic shift economically if we do leave the big players will want to deal with New EU first, then deal with Uk. We're at the back of the queue....

PS: Don't the middle class Brexiters realise that their Audis, Bosch, Le Creuset and Fiat 500s will all go up in price? Surely FAR more persuasive arguments to stay....

And if we leave. In Reverse will rollers & jags also go up in price. I think not!
Working class Brexiter. Not middle class Tory.

**haroldeye** · May 14th, 2016, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TCrout

I don't understand why the Leave camp think that the IMF are scare mongering. Why would that be made up? This will be a seismic shift economically if we do leave the big players will want to deal with New EU first, then deal with Uk. We're at the back of the queue....

PS: Don't the middle class Brexiters realise that their Audis, Bosch, Le Creuset and Fiat 500s will all go up in price? Surely FAR more persuasive arguments to stay....

The IMF is hardly a beacon of light and truth. Its last Head was removed for some very shady goings on, not least rape and its current head is waiting trial for dodgy dealings. Mdm Lagard (spelling) is a good friend of Squeaky George and still refers to the EU as the Project.

**scoundrel** · May 14th, 2016, 10:43 AM

I am satisfied in my own mind that leaving the EU will cause a major financial and economic disruption. After all, joining the EEC as it was then called caused a major financial and economic disruption at the time. You cant knock a building down and think there's not going to be noise, dust and mess to clear up. But if the building needs to be knocked down then you will knock it down. You just will.

I do not believe a constitutional decision can be made only for economic reasons. I think this is about how we choose to relate to our European neighbours. All the scaremongering shit is just so much white noise.

We're going to be overrun with Turks apparently, even though we aren't even in the Schengen agreement.
We wont be able to make trade agreement with the USA if we leave. But actually if this means we can avoid being bent over like Ned Beatty in Deliverence by being made to sign the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership, I'd see that as a damned good thing. I can't believe the EU are even talking to America about lifting the ban on genetically modified crops; allowing endocrine disrupting chemicals in pesticides again (remember DDT?). They should merely publish the outrageous secret demands coming from the USA side and announce that they have told Mr Obama and the US administration where to go and how to travel. Likewise this idea that US companies can sue EU governments for regulating their activities on EU soil. If proposed TPIP rules applied, Union Carbide could sue the Indian government for imposing stricter safety standards at Bhopal. Not acceptable.

Britain has always has a semi-detached approach to the EU. I think this should continue. We do and must value our relationships and we need to cultivate them, and the referendum will work against this. But likewise, we need to look after ourselves. If the EU signs this TTIP agreement on purely American terms, Britain must refuse to participate. But unless Britain is party to the discussion, Britain will have no say in what the TTIP says. We need to be in the discussion and that can only happen if we are members of the EU. That is the best policy in the UK national interest.

Leaving should be reserved for the day when the EU makes decisions and imposes on us decisions which are intolerable to our national interest. That might include the Commissions asylum "reform" which wants to fine member states for refusing to accept asylum seekers. It seems to me to be an attack on sovereignty;but as it happens Britain, Ireland and Denmark have the right to opt out of EU asylum policy and have invoked it, and so cannot be told to accept migrants from inside the EU, nor can they be fined for refusing. All our refugees will come from camps in Syria, Turkey and Jordan, and will be vetted first.

**Wendigo** · May 14th, 2016, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scoundrel

Leaving should be reserved for the day when the EU makes decisions and imposes on us decisions which are intolerable to our national interest.

The big problem with that scenario is I suspect is that the circumstances by which any country gets a chance for a referendum is determined by their Government not the people. Both of the big 2 UK parties as well as the LibDems and the SNP despite all of them holding often diametrically opposite views on many things are all pro the UK staying in. The chances of us being offered a vote at a later stage in response to any future EU edicts eroding UK sovereignty are very slim.

This referendum run in has been noticeable by the total lack of positive arguments on all sides but mainly the Pro EU lobby's continued playing that same "if we leave we could be in the shit" argument. It's that tired old fear mantra of the doom-mongers littered with the same old phrases "maybe" "could" "possible" "likely to" "chances are" etc. that just underlines the point that no one has a clue what will happen.

I suspect that Project Fear will step up a few gears in the next few weeks and the bullshit meter will

be cranked up to 11

**otokonomidori** · May 14th, 2016, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scoundrel

I can't believe the EU are even talking to America about lifting the ban on genetically modified crops;

You reckon GM crops are a bad thing? Pourquoi?

I ask because my son , who is a biologist, tells me the benefits far outweigh any possible risks.

I've got no view other than that I know I'd be quite happy to smoke genetically modified tobacco on the basis that it can't be any worse for me than the ordinary stuff.

MaxJoker · May 14th, 2016, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by otokonomidori

my son , who is a biologist, tells me the benefits far outweigh any possible risks.

Indeed.
High five to your son. As his wisdom stuns even me.
Scoffing food that causes cancerous lesions on our organs (The real truth be out there beyond the bullshit if you dare gaze), is grown from seeds (Forever owned by the conglomerate) half as fruitful as regular non specially mutated crops and requires four times as much pesticide applications (Coincidentally produced by Monsanto also) , is the way to go

It`s called Eugenics.
Yaaaay.
Let`s embrace the mostly all dead in fifteen years future our faceless masters want us too.

TCrout · May 14th, 2016, 09:50 PM

At time of writing, I bet only Ireland & Malta vote for us at Eurovision. Out I say, Out!

**deepsepia** · May 14th, 2016, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scoundrel

Leaving should be reserved for the day when the EU makes decisions and imposes on us decisions which are intolerable to our national interest. That might include the Commissions asylum "reform" which wants to fine member states for refusing to accept asylum seekers. It seems to me to be an attack on sovereignty;but as it happens Britain, Ireland and Denmark have the right to opt out of EU asylum policy and have invoked it, and so cannot be told to accept migrants from inside the EU, nor can they be fined for refusing. All our refugees will come from camps in Syria, Turkey and Jordan, and will be vetted first.

Consider the Southern states in the USA. In 1776 and 1792, they were essentially sovereign; but in 1861, they were no longer, in the eyes of the rest of the Union.

I don't have an opinion on "stay or go"-- nor would it matter what my opinion was, if I had one. But the American experience does suggest that the "we'll leave if it becomes intolerable later" option may not be realistic . . .

**otokonomidori** · May 15th, 2016, 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaxJoker

Indeed.
High five to your son. As his wisdom stuns even me.
Scoffing food that causes cancerous lesions on our organs

Whether my son is wise or not is highly debatable but he certainly is very well qualified academically to discuss plant biology and in addition he supported his comments with scholarly evidence from reputable sources rather than making an unsubstantiated assertion .

May 13th, 2016, 09:09 PM	#181
TCrout Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 267 Thanks: 1,116 Thanked 1,911 Times in 254 Posts	I don't understand why the Leave camp think that the IMF are scare mongering. Why would that be made up? This will be a seismic shift economically if we do leave the big players will want to deal with New EU first, then deal with Uk. We're at the back of the queue.... PS: Don't the middle class Brexiters realise that their Audis, Bosch, Le Creuset and Fiat 500s will all go up in price? Surely FAR more persuasive arguments to stay.... Last edited by TCrout; May 13th, 2016 at 09:18 PM..

May 14th, 2016, 10:43 AM	#184
scoundrel Super Moderator Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: England Posts: 26,238 Thanks: 162,399 Thanked 278,496 Times in 26,183 Posts	I am satisfied in my own mind that leaving the EU will cause a major financial and economic disruption. After all, joining the EEC as it was then called caused a major financial and economic disruption at the time. You cant knock a building down and think there's not going to be noise, dust and mess to clear up. But if the building needs to be knocked down then you will knock it down. You just will. I do not believe a constitutional decision can be made only for economic reasons. I think this is about how we choose to relate to our European neighbours. All the scaremongering shit is just so much white noise. We're going to be overrun with Turks apparently, even though we aren't even in the Schengen agreement. We wont be able to make trade agreement with the USA if we leave. But actually if this means we can avoid being bent over like Ned Beatty in Deliverence by being made to sign the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership, I'd see that as a damned good thing. I can't believe the EU are even talking to America about lifting the ban on genetically modified crops; allowing endocrine disrupting chemicals in pesticides again (remember DDT?). They should merely publish the outrageous secret demands coming from the USA side and announce that they have told Mr Obama and the US administration where to go and how to travel. Likewise this idea that US companies can sue EU governments for regulating their activities on EU soil. If proposed TPIP rules applied, Union Carbide could sue the Indian government for imposing stricter safety standards at Bhopal. Not acceptable. Britain has always has a semi-detached approach to the EU. I think this should continue. We do and must value our relationships and we need to cultivate them, and the referendum will work against this. But likewise, we need to look after ourselves. If the EU signs this TTIP agreement on purely American terms, Britain must refuse to participate. But unless Britain is party to the discussion, Britain will have no say in what the TTIP says. We need to be in the discussion and that can only happen if we are members of the EU. That is the best policy in the UK national interest. Leaving should be reserved for the day when the EU makes decisions and imposes on us decisions which are intolerable to our national interest. That might include the Commissions asylum "reform" which wants to fine member states for refusing to accept asylum seekers. It seems to me to be an attack on sovereignty;but as it happens Britain, Ireland and Denmark have the right to opt out of EU asylum policy and have invoked it, and so cannot be told to accept migrants from inside the EU, nor can they be fined for refusing. All our refugees will come from camps in Syria, Turkey and Jordan, and will be vetted first. __________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

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May 14th, 2016, 09:50 PM	#188
TCrout Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 267 Thanks: 1,116 Thanked 1,911 Times in 254 Posts	At time of writing, I bet only Ireland & Malta vote for us at Eurovision. Out I say, Out!