The Second World War.

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by palo5

Today? ... yes, I think they know. But the youngers don't care, and the olders think the English would say anything to save the Empire. They said much about Poland too, but it didn't help anyone. Just words

Where is this going... did England save USSR are something?? Did you know England attacked USSR twice 20 years before?? USA did the same, btw

We failed to save Poland from the USSR, that's very true. Your reference to the Intervention is also true (you forget to mention Japan BTW). But it was not just words. The Nazi regime found out the hard way that when you push the British people too far, they have a mean streak wider than Heathrow Airport Runway One; we entered WW2 specifically on the occasion of Germany invading Poland. The worst thing about it is that everyone, but everyone, was astonished because we kept our word. The Germans simply assumed that we would break our word because we had done this so often before. That's the main reason why we hated Hitler; he had shamed us. Only his life's blood would be sufficient to pay him out for that.

Did we save the USSR? Let me put that another way. Would you really have preferred to fight WW2 without British support? It is very silly that our countries are at loggerheads now and would have been criminal then, when we were both up against the same deadly enemy. Why deny that Britain was a key Russian ally in 1941? I would never deny this of Russia.

[Mal Hombre]

We did save the USSR,In that We kept the back door to Hitler's Thousand Year Reich open.In 1940,after the debacle in France and the minor miracle of Dunkirk,The only sensible option for Great Britain was to make peace,If We had there would have been no liberation for the occupied countries and no way for the US to intervene in Europe.The USSR would have had to fight Germany without any supply convoys,No tanks,No trucks,No food,The Third Reich would not have had divert resources to North Africa or Italy,Their cities would have remained unscathed and Their factories would have been running at full capacity.

[hound dog]

Originally Posted by palo5

But the youngers don't care, and the olders think the English would say anything to save the Empire.

Where is this going... did England save USSR are something?? Did you know England attacked USSR twice 20 years before?? USA did the same, btw

No, the western Allies absolutely did not fight to save the Soviet Union. They fought to preserve freedom in Europe. Just as the Soviet Union did not fight to save the western Allies, only to defeat and take revenge on Germany for, in hindsight, foolishly invading. At the same time they wanted to dominate and gain control of as much of eastern Europe as they could. We recognized that the Soviet Union was a threat to European freedom, Churchill especially, but we also realized that Nazi Germany was the much more immediate threat.

Since WWII led to the breakup of the Empire your elders beliefs have been proven unfounded, the attitudes and lack of appreciation of your younger generations is socially your problem.

It's convenient to forget the two Americans buried in the Kremlin. Of course, you could say they were just individuals fighting for the cause, and you appreciate their individual efforts. That pretty much sums up how I look at the Red Army in WWII. I appreciate the individual sacrifice and accomplishment of their effort in defeating Nazi Germany, but grieve for the 40+ years of suffering endured by Eastern Europe under the boot heel of the Soviet Union.

And lets not forget that less than 10 years after WWII the Soviet Union was supplying planes and covertly supplying pilots to combat the UN forces fighting in Korea. A conflict that was approved because the Soviet Leadership were throwing a tantrum, and instead of exercising their UN veto, decided not to show up for the vote.

[Rogerbh]

So with the emergence of China as a soon to be world power and the accident of geography putting Russia once again as the closest Siamese Fighting Fish near this threat, do the Russians once again look at the lessons/costs of WWII as something to prepare for?

Fascinating subject to me, I mean you can only look at naked pics of women for so long.

[hound dog]

Strictly going by the historical example set by the Soviet Union leading up to WWII, my suspicion is that they will cooperate with and encourage China, only seeing how it benefits their own regional and world interests in the short term. I base this on the Soviet Union's shortsightedness in allowing Nazi Germany to train and test new tactics within Soviet territory prior to any hostilities, hidden from the west's view; it's nonaggression pact with Nazi Germany; it's supplying raw materials to Nazi Germany's war industry; and the agreement to divide Poland in exchange for Soviet noninterference; as well as it's modern day practice of selling weapons technology to China. I also think it will come back to bite them in the ass, eventually, just as the Barbarossa invasion did. China is very patient, and tends to look at things with an eye for the far and distant future. Far sightedness doesn't appear to be a Russian strong point. With China's vast population, it will take more than mere numbers alone to deter her if there is ever any conflict. The numbers will always be on China's side.

[Nobody1]

Originally Posted by hound dog

No, the western Allies absolutely did not fight to save the Soviet Union. They fought to preserve freedom in Europe...

To preserve freedom in Europe.

'A clique of U.S. industrialists is hell-bent to bring a fascist state to supplant our democratic government and is working closely with the fascist regime in Germany and Italy. I have had plenty of opportunity in my post in Berlin to witness how close some of our American ruling families are to the Nazi regime.... A prominent executive of one of the largest corporations, told me point blank that he would be ready to take definite action to bring fascism into America if President Roosevelt continued his progressive policies. Certain American industrialists had a great deal to do with bringing fascist regimes into being in both Germany and Italy. They extended aid to help Fascism occupy the seat of power, and they are helping to keep it there. Propagandists for fascist groups try to dismiss the fascist scare. We should be aware of the symptoms. When industrialists ignore laws designed for social and economic progress they will seek recourse to a fascist state when the institutions of our government compel them to comply with the provisions.'

(William E. Dodd, US Ambassador to Nazi Germany from 1933 to 1937)

And then there's this.

http://emperors-clothes.com/articles/randy/swas5.htm

In order to preserve freedom in Europe I guess.

Btw, Hitler was Time 'Man of the Year' in 1938.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_Pe...ns_of_the_Year

[hound dog]

The selfish, unscrupulous and unprincipled actions of wealthy business executives do not define the motives of the average member of all the armed forces who actually fought the war. They interrupted their lives and risked death or were killed to stop an evil regime. They didn't expect to make a profit, they just hoped to make it out alive. The motives of the rich have always been the same throughout history, to keep the wealth they have and to amass more, and unfortunately they give little thought to principles or ethics in their attempts. Sure, there are exceptions, but sadly that's just it, they are exceptions. It's the same as it ever was.

[Ennath]

Originally Posted by Rogerbh

I mean you can only look at naked pics of women for so long.

But it's quality time.

[knobby109]

Originally Posted by Mal Hombre

We did save the USSR,In that We kept the back door to Hitler's Thousand Year Reich open.In 1940,after the debacle in France and the minor miracle of Dunkirk,The only sensible option for Great Britain was to make peace,If We had there would have been no liberation for the occupied countries and no way for the US to intervene in Europe.The USSR would have had to fight Germany without any supply convoys,No tanks,No trucks,No food,The Third Reich would not have had divert resources to North Africa or Italy,Their cities would have remained unscathed and Their factories would have been running at full capacity.

Absolutely. Simply by remaining belligerent the British Empire forced Germany to keep large forces in France and also to use military resources in other theatres.The result was probably a 30% reduction in the German strength available for Operation Barbarossa.
If the UK had sued for peace, not only would more German troops and equipment have been available in the East, Hitler would have had his hands on extra manufacturing resources (the UK made 135000 aircraft during WW2) but would have been able to recruit men from Britain and France.
So probably the UK and its Empire prevented Germany from winning and lent a minor but still strong hand in its defeat.

[scoundrel]

Sadly, Hitler did recruit a small but significant SS force from France; it was one of the very last units to capitulate when the Red Army captured Berlin. He also managed to recruit a very small but shameful group of British soldiers for the SS, whom we have discussed before in this thread. But I do not doubt for a second that if the British government had given up in May 1940 (and Neville Chamberlain and Lord Halifax tried extremely hard to force Churchill to seek a negotiated surrender) we would have seen a much larger transfer of British men into SS units. We would also, incredibly dangerous this, have seen a much larger and more viable Vichy French navy, with no Mers el Kibir to cramp its style, and possibly the Royal Navy would have collaborated with Germany naval units during a subsequent Operation Barbarossa.

The victory of the Allies over the Axis in WW2 was not inevitable.