The NFL and NBA thread

[clonevs]

Originally Posted by qwerty007

http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_15236814

2006 World Cup viewership was 26 BILLION..., which is more that 400 MILLION AVERAGE per game....and that is with games like Poland v Costa Rica and Angola v Iran. Now I know that the US is the center of the universe , but C'MON MAN!!! There's a reason why Man U is the richest franchise in the world!!

(It isn't even close...viewership of 6 billion people v 300 million. There are 300 million REGISTERED MAN U SUPPORTERS!!, alone)

...and this coming from a Steelers fan.

Back to the Vick thing;

I thought he was on a short leash (pun intended), but with Goodell you never know. Good article to read:

http://www.cbssports.com/print/colum...-bar;btn-print

Great counterpoints. I know...the US is the center of the world. I guess I look at it through very, very US colored glasses. My point is; yes more people watched the World Cup...how on earth they can honestly come to that conclusion is mind boggling. I will say this, being in the military the time the SuperBowl is on...there are really less flights / msn's than on Christmas.
So...yeah more people watched the World Cup....but the Super Bowl might have a bigger global impact. Does that make sense? NFL is played on Sundays and the Super Bowl is always on a Sunday...always will be. No US business takes place on those days...I know, I know that's a weak argument.

I have to throw the white flag here...I was trumped soundly. I shouldn't have ventured into these waters. I am way outmatched.
I can talk about a 3-4 or a nickel, can talk about zone defense and the pick and roll...talk about when to hit and run. Debate if Gayle Sanders was a better back than Barry Sanders...if Brooks Robinson was as good as Mike Schmidt....if Manny Ramirez is the best right handed power hitter in the last 35yrs....talk about Pistol Pete..Bob Cousy......you name it with the big three pro sports....I know college too.
But I totally showed my ass on this, and got it handed back


My mind gets focused on porn in here

I'll stick to viewing this thread, me thinks. Good stuff in the last 24hrs on here though. Props to you fellas.

[grossnex]

Originally Posted by clonevs

Great counterpoints. I know...the US is the center of the world. I guess I look at it through very, very US colored glasses. My point is; yes more people watched the World Cup...how on earth they can honestly come to that conclusion is mind boggling. I will say this, being in the military the time the SuperBowl is on...there are really less flights / msn's than on Christmas.
So...yeah more people watched the World Cup....but the Super Bowl might have a bigger global impact. Does that make sense? NFL is played on Sundays and the Super Bowl is always on a Sunday...always will be. No US business takes place on those days...I know, I know that's a weak argument.

I have to throw the white flag here...I was trumped soundly. I shouldn't have ventured into these waters. I am way outmatched.
I can talk about a 3-4 or a nickel, can talk about zone defense and the pick and roll...talk about when to hit and run. Debate if Gayle Sanders was a better back than Barry Sanders...if Brooks Robinson was as good as Mike Schmidt....if Manny Ramirez is the best right handed power hitter in the last 35yrs....talk about Pistol Pete..Bob Cousy......you name it with the big three pro sports....I know college too.
But I totally showed my ass on this, and got it handed back


My mind gets focused on porn in here

I'll stick to viewing this thread, me thinks. Good stuff in the last 24hrs on here though. Props to you fellas.

Hey now. There's no need to take your ball & go home my brother. You've added some insight in this thread. Ok, so you over reached a bit with the World Cup Vs Super Bowl thing, but so what? Brother Qwerty will always respond with the precision of a tactical nuclear device & set the record straight. No big deal. I've overstepped my knowledge earlier in the thread. I look forward to seeing your posts in the future.

[grossnex]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

Since money seems to be the root of all evil in NFL as well as life, the conduct policy would best be enforced as part of the Collective Bargaining Agreement, not with nominal fines, but with the cancellation of real salary. Front-loaded contracts such as in the Haynesworth case are perverse incentives to act like a sociopathic child, because it saves you working for the cash you've already pocketed. Would you pay a builder 50% up front to build your extension and simply wait for him to turn up and start working? Or even worse, would you pay him the other 50% when he is only half way through the build?

I actually understand the concerns of players on mandatory drugs testing: some very funny things have occurred in athletics where athletes are subjected to compulsory testing and yet some countries (China) seem slightly less reliable about it than others and individual athletes can find their reputations are ruined in a Kafka-like process of private trial, where they aren't even represented and public verdict. The Diane Modahl case was a good example: her drugs test eventually was discreditted when it was shown the Portuguese laboratory didn't store her samples in a fridge but left them out in 35 degree summer heat to go contaminated. If I were clean and playing NFL, I'd still have a worry in the back of my mind at every drugs test, not of being caught but of being wrongly accused and publically shamed when I am innocent. The answer must surely be open and public audit of the testing as well as open and public test results from regular testing of the players. The integrity of the players is being judged and they have a right to insist that the testing must have integrity too.

Pensions should perhaps be built into players contracts but on a fixed contributions basis rather than a fixed benefits basis. The contributions should be straight from the players earnings. In effect pensions are deferred salary anyway and the point here really is that many players earn megabucks and yet are so feckless with their money that they wind up on skid row within 5 years of retiring. A pension clause in their contract would protect some players from themselves. But no way should the liability be carried in a club's balance sheet creditors (thats "payables" in US accounting-speak) because there isn't the mutual loyalty relationship coming from the players side to warrant such an act of noblesse oblige on the part of the club.

I absolutely agree with your points my brother, but I think you misunderstood my intended statements. Baseball has incentive bonuses built into contracts, although usually only for veteran players who are "high risks" regarding injury. For example, a 40 year old pitcher might have a base salary of $1 million. He'll have benchmarks set up in his contract & possibly earn more money for things like games played, innings pitched & things of that nature. You're basically rewarded for staying healthy. The benchmarks are rarely set too high. This is where I was going with the NFL.

On the issue of drug testing, I can understand the players' concern for privacy as well. But, why can't the NFL send a test to 2 different facilities before concluding their test? Why can't they suspend a player & not release the information to the media until the evidence is irrefutable? I think there are ways around the players' concern.

The way I understand NFL pensions, the money comes out of the players' contracts & the team is not involved. OJ Simpson was the most famous pension story I had read. He was found guilty in the civil case after his famous criminal trial. The man refused work so that he didn't have to pay virtually all earnings to the Goldman family. He was living off of his NFL pension because that was exempt from the court decision. The way I see it, that's guaranteed money. That's not too bad at all.

[qwerty007]

Originally Posted by grossnex

Qwerty will always respond with the precision of a tactical nuclear device & set the record straight. No big deal. I've overstepped my knowledge earlier in the thread. I look forward to seeing your posts in the future.

You obviously have so much to learn - I am a MIRV!!!

As far as overstepping knowledge - I would LOVE for some things to be a certain way, but it's other people who can present a well thought out and presented discussion (a contrarian point of view) that keep you grounded.

We are all a prejudiced makeup of our experiences and histories, probably because it is impossible to experience EVERYTHING - so it's difficult to step outside one's own 'box' and understand/accept things you don't know/like.

On a personal note:

I find it much easier to respect an individual who would say;

"I think the Super Bowl has a greater one day impact as a sporting event, than any other sport in the world"

as opposed to:

"Soccer (football) is such a BORING sport, with guys falling down like babies. Real men play real sports like in the NFL"

An eloquent argument is always easy to appreciate and respect (even if the point differs from your own) - instead of some guy saying "F*** YOU!!!!"

[qwerty007]

Originally Posted by clonevs

Great counterpoints. I know...the US is the center of the world. I guess I look at it through very, very US colored glasses. My point is; yes more people watched the World Cup...how on earth they can honestly come to that conclusion is mind boggling. I will say this, being in the military the time the SuperBowl is on...there are really less flights / msn's than on Christmas.
So...yeah more people watched the World Cup....but the Super Bowl might have a bigger global impact. Does that make sense? NFL is played on Sundays and the Super Bowl is always on a Sunday...always will be. No US business takes place on those days...I know, I know that's a weak argument.

I have to throw the white flag here...I was trumped soundly. I shouldn't have ventured into these waters. I am way outmatched.
I can talk about a 3-4 or a nickel, can talk about zone defense and the pick and roll...talk about when to hit and run. Debate if Gayle Sanders was a better back than Barry Sanders...if Brooks Robinson was as good as Mike Schmidt....if Manny Ramirez is the best right handed power hitter in the last 35yrs....talk about Pistol Pete..Bob Cousy......you name it with the big three pro sports....I know college too.
But I totally showed my ass on this, and got it handed back


My mind gets focused on porn in here

I'll stick to viewing this thread, me thinks. Good stuff in the last 24hrs on here though. Props to you fellas.

There is nothing wrong with taking pride in your sport. Who knows, maybe if the NFL was exported better around the world, it could give football (soccer) a run for it's money.

One thing that is different though, is that we here in North America (the newer generation, I think) look at sports as entertainment, a diversion much like the movies...while around the world it is taken far more seriously than that. All you have to do is see Indian and Pakistan play cricket...

...it's just different, that's all.

BUT

Not sure if you saw yesterdays Pardon The Interruption (PTI) with Kornheiser and Wilbon - specifically the new warning poster that the NFL brass is posting for players to read, about concussions.

Wilbon's point of view is that this was a completely understated move and that this is the death knell for NFL football as we know it. He gives his own family as an example

"I have a 2 year old son and I will NOT allow him to play football, for all the damage it does to the brain. Look at Chris Henry (recently died when he was thrown from a truck driven by his girlfriend) - who had long term BRAIN DAMAGE show up during his autopsy, but had NEVER had any concussion symptoms from playing the game"

Interesting stuff...

(BTW - does Walmart Supercentre close when the Superbowl is on???)

ON A SIDE NOTE:

The rose coloured glasses thing is exactly what the marketing machine of ANYTHING wants - for us to think that there is nothing else out there, save for what we are being fed. The is no other laundry detergent but TIDE, no other food but McDonalds, no other car better than a GM and the best and biggest sport in the world....is what we tell you it is.

SO GO SEE IT!!!

[tygrkhat40]

Super Bowl vs. World Cup? One is an extremely over-hyped yearly event that people remember mostly for the commercials and useless halftime shows and produces a team that calls itself "world champion," the other an under-hyped (in the US) every 4 year event that people remember for the drama and passion and produces a team that can truly call itself "World Champion."

The World Cup is a mobile sports Mecca, where the devotees of the most popular sport in the world turn to every four years. The Super Bowl is a sports freak show that the rest of the world (and many Americans) peak in on once a year.

Don't get me wrong, my favorite sport is American professional football. But the Super Bowl is one of the things I feel is wrong with the NFL.

And as far as concussions ending the NFL? Well, we still have boxing, MMA has surged in popularity and hockey is still popular all over the world. True, the only way to prevent concussions form playing sports, is to not play them. But that opens the slippery slope of saying we should stop doing anything that is dangerous to us, and anybody who's watched "Dirty Jobs" on Discovery, that means a lot of things that make modern life possible.

[grossnex]

I happened across this you tube video while surfing around the internet. I thought I would share it with you guys because I've never seen anything like it before. This guy goes to a Yankees VS Indians game in Cleveland wearing a LeBron James Miami Heat jersey. The fans gave him such a hard time, he had to be escorted out by security. I don't know about you guys, but I have to love the passion of the fans in Cleveland .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaqHK...eature=related


Here's the same guy leaving the arena.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCpPc...layer_embedded

[clonevs]

Originally Posted by tygrkhat40

Super Bowl vs. World Cup? One is an extremely over-hyped yearly event that people remember mostly for the commercials and useless halftime shows and produces a team that calls itself "world champion," the other an under-hyped (in the US) every 4 year event that people remember for the drama and passion and produces a team that can truly call itself "World Champion."

The World Cup is a mobile sports Mecca, where the devotees of the most popular sport in the world turn to every four years. The Super Bowl is a sports freak show that the rest of the world (and many Americans) peak in on once a year.

Don't get me wrong, my favorite sport is American professional football. But the Super Bowl is one of the things I feel is wrong with the NFL.

Well, there called World Champions in all three of our major sports (NFL, NBA, MLB). Think a case can be made for all three of those being legitimate titles. NFL.....no other country in the world plays our game, with the exception of Canada (and that is pretty much a minor league system--I mean you aren't gonna any kid that is draft prospect choose the CFL. Yes it is somewhat about money, but the NFL talent is far superior to the CFL). In the MLB as well as NBA the influx of foreign talent in the last 20yrs is unreal. The only exception to the NBA is Rubio...and yeah other teams around the world have gotten better....but in the last Olympic's...was there even a doubt? Baseball could get a strong argument with Japan/Korea and we did not as a country fair well in the WBC...but that's because current MLB players played for their birth country. But to say that the best WBC team would beat any team in the NLCS/ALCS...I can't see that. World Champs is an easy target...but it is true.

I disagree that the Super Bowl is somehow wrong. Only three yrs ago we had arguably one of the better if not the best Super Bowls in history with the Giants upsetting the Patriots....on a fluke play (fluke in that 9 times out of 10 in that situation the QB goes down or a flag is thrown for something). Then we had the Cardinals and Steelers....another great game.
Now.....is the 6hr pregame, the commercial specials, the way to long intermission at the half a problem? Absolutely. And NBC on Sunday night is awful with time stoppage...but I think that is Al Michaels personally. It was the same problem with him on MNF. What it all comes down to is the action of the field. Having been on the west coast for the last 14yrs and with the advent of DVR....about every night game I watch is delayed because I pause it so I can back on skip the commercial's. That really, really makes a difference. The NFL gets better every year. Most true sports fans should notice that. With all the video and technology......the competitiveness is at a peak. The downside is you get a solid, smart organization like New England face off against a struggling one like Buffalo....and Brady can throw what, 5-6 touchdowns in a half? That was not a fluke....that was preparation, execution and better coaching, talent to the extreme.
On a sidetrack but along the same lines.....you think if you switched LeBron and Kobe last year it would have been the same Champion? Of course and many would.....but most would ignore the most glaring factor in that...Mike Brown. You could have switched only the coaches and LA would have probably gotten beaten in the playoffs....I won't say Brown is lazy, but he is out of his depth as an NBA head coach. Ok I got way off track, sorry.

I did want to reference what some poster mentioned about American sports being entertainment more so than sports. Man, I don't buy that at all. I just don't see that....from the player, coaching aspect. Now the fans thinking it is entertainment? You can argue that. I laugh at the Cavs fans who were saying they'd still support the Cavs if LeBron left. Balogne. Some will. MOST are gone. I guess the biggest thing that I could point to about the fan seeing it as fun/entertainment and the player seeing it as their job; Chris Rock joking to Kobe in the Finals....and Kobe not even acknowledging him. Of course that makes Yahoo news (but so does some stupid list telling us if your boss has a red face and his eyes dart all over the place he is hiding something).

No, sports is the same...the fans are changing. Not me, not us. Old school baby. I don't need the bells and whistles. I dig the 2-1 well picthed, well played MLB game. I dig the pick and roll...and the crackback block that springs a 15 yard gain.

[tygrkhat40]

I must respectfully disagree, the Super Bowl is wrong. Only the NFL plays its championship at a neutral site, taking the fans out of it. Loyal fans are cheated out of seeing a league champion crowned on their home turf and by the limited number of tickets available and the outrageous cost. Teams are forced to participate in pointless corporate sponsored events that take away from preparation from the most important game of the season. Take media day. Most of the players are never addressed by the media during the season, and much of the media are not sports reporters or even know anything about the game.

And then there's the game itself. Sure the last few games have been decent games, but the majority have been snoozers. And can we get rid of the stupid halftime show? Every other game in the season has a 12 minute halftime, but the most important game of the game of the season has the game delayed for a mini-concert. Seeing the Who in the last Super Bowl only proved to me that Roger's voice is almost gone.

And as far as "good" organizations and "struggling" ones, when the Bills were on their Super Bowl run they were a model organization while the Patriots were one of the most disfunctional. It's cyclical. Granted, for some teams it's harder to break that cycle, but as the Cardinals have shown, it's possible.

And I'm with you, I'm old school. That's why the Super Bowl is wrong, it's all about the bells and whistles, not the game.

[qwerty007]

Originally Posted by clonevs

Well, there called World Champions in all three of our major sports (NFL, NBA, MLB). Think a case can be made for all three of those being legitimate titles. NFL.....no other country in the world plays our game, with the exception of Canada (and that is pretty much a minor league system--I mean you aren't gonna any kid that is draft prospect choose the CFL. Yes it is somewhat about money, but the NFL talent is far superior to the CFL). In the MLB as well as NBA the influx of foreign talent in the last 20yrs is unreal. The only exception to the NBA is Rubio...and yeah other teams around the world have gotten better....but in the last Olympic's...was there even a doubt? Baseball could get a strong argument with Japan/Korea and we did not as a country fair well in the WBC...but that's because current MLB players played for their birth country. But to say that the best WBC team would beat any team in the NLCS/ALCS...I can't see that. World Champs is an easy target...but it is true.

I disagree that the Super Bowl is somehow wrong. Only three yrs ago we had arguably one of the better if not the best Super Bowls in history with the Giants upsetting the Patriots....on a fluke play (fluke in that 9 times out of 10 in that situation the QB goes down or a flag is thrown for something). Then we had the Cardinals and Steelers....another great game.
Now.....is the 6hr pregame, the commercial specials, the way to long intermission at the half a problem? Absolutely. And NBC on Sunday night is awful with time stoppage...but I think that is Al Michaels personally. It was the same problem with him on MNF. What it all comes down to is the action of the field. Having been on the west coast for the last 14yrs and with the advent of DVR....about every night game I watch is delayed because I pause it so I can back on skip the commercial's. That really, really makes a difference. The NFL gets better every year. Most true sports fans should notice that. With all the video and technology......the competitiveness is at a peak. The downside is you get a solid, smart organization like New England face off against a struggling one like Buffalo....and Brady can throw what, 5-6 touchdowns in a half? That was not a fluke....that was preparation, execution and better coaching, talent to the extreme.
On a sidetrack but along the same lines.....you think if you switched LeBron and Kobe last year it would have been the same Champion? Of course and many would.....but most would ignore the most glaring factor in that...Mike Brown. You could have switched only the coaches and LA would have probably gotten beaten in the playoffs....I won't say Brown is lazy, but he is out of his depth as an NBA head coach. Ok I got way off track, sorry.

I did want to reference what some poster mentioned about American sports being entertainment more so than sports. Man, I don't buy that at all. I just don't see that....from the player, coaching aspect. Now the fans thinking it is entertainment? You can argue that. I laugh at the Cavs fans who were saying they'd still support the Cavs if LeBron left. Balogne. Some will. MOST are gone. I guess the biggest thing that I could point to about the fan seeing it as fun/entertainment and the player seeing it as their job; Chris Rock joking to Kobe in the Finals....and Kobe not even acknowledging him. Of course that makes Yahoo news (but so does some stupid list telling us if your boss has a red face and his eyes dart all over the place he is hiding something).

No, sports is the same...the fans are changing. Not me, not us. Old school baby. I don't need the bells and whistles. I dig the 2-1 well picthed, well played MLB game. I dig the pick and roll...and the crackback block that springs a 15 yard gain.

OK - first the CFL / NFL part:

In the 50's and 60's the CFL used to play exhibition games against the NFL, using a blend of rules. I think that the Ticats beat the Bills one year and that was the last time those games happened.

WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS:

Are just that. When the World Baseball Classic is played, that is the actual WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS...when players play for their home nation and a team is crowned...WORLD CHAMPIONS.

In Football (soccer) each year they have CLUB championships for Europe (as an example), with the likes of Manchester United, Real Madrid, Inter Milan, Bayern Munich competing for European CLUB glory. Think of the Yankees playing against the top Asian team, the top European Club team and the top Central/South American team in a tourney. Players can be from anywhere in the world.

Every 4 years, they have EUROPEAN CHAMPIONSHIPS (offset 2 years from the World Cup), where the NATIONS of Europe hold a WORLD CUP style tournament...(FYI...this is the SECOND most watched sporting event in the world, after the World Cup)

So, to call a CLUB team (like the New Orleans Saints) Champions OF THE WORLD...isn't quite kosher. Nice for marketing purposes...but not very true. It's almost as if Geelong or St Kilda of the Aussie Rules football league called themselves World Champs...because the sport is only really played at any level in Australia...

The World Baseball Classic are the actual WORLD CHAMPIONS...and will remain so, like Spain is the World Champs in football, until dethroned. You do not, however, make money for being a WORLD CHAMP, therefore...not so sexy.

BUT...I think this is an apples and oranges conversation. Club teams versus national teams.

That is why HOCKEY, who annually plays for the STANLEY CUP, the most coveted prize in hockey, is the SPORT!!!

JUST TO CLARIFY

I think you are preaching to the choir here, about North American sports. I think it is much more than entertainment....in a lot of ways the cities that these teams play for, take on the personality of the teams. (or vice versa) Ask any Chicago, Toronto, Boston, Montreal, Green Bay, Pittsburgh fan...for starters.

The point I was making, is that the players (i.e.their agents) try to make it seem like 'a job' and 'work' and 'a business'...like they are in the entertainment business, when CLEARLY (at least for YOU AND I)...it is much much more than that.

GO MAN U!
GO STILLERS!
GO HABS!
GO ALS!