Current Politics in the United Kingdom

[haroldeye]

When Ma Merkel visited Athens to tell, erm discuss, problems with the Greek Government the man on the Immigration desk asked 'Occupation' to which she replied 'Not this time'.

[jacques22]

Originally Posted by haroldeye

Not fake news at all. The Euro is at one level and keeps prices of German goods affordable. If Germany still had the Dm, it would be worth substantially more than the Euro and would restrict the sales of German goods and services. It's not cash that they get from the budget it's the advantage that it gives to their economy. This advantage comes at a cost to the weaker economies in the Euro zone like Portugal and Spain.

Euro or Dm, it really makes no difference. Germany already had the strongest economy in Europe when their currency was the deutschmark. Even if you increase the price of German goods, people all over the world would still buy them because they're good quality and reliable.

Despite Brexit and the impact on the exchange rate and inflation in the UK, British people will still buy Mercedes, Audi or Porsche cars, whatever the price, because it's a status buy. And middle-class Brits will still buy Bosch, Siemens or Miele electric appliances because those are robust products that last for ages. Portugal, Spain and other weak European economies don't manufacture similar products.

The reality is that Germany simply has a more competitive economy than other European nations. France forced Germany to give up the deutschmark and adopt the euro in the hope that it would help contain Germany's economic rise. But in the end, euro or dm, the result is still the same.

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by jacques22

The reality is that Germany simply has a more competitive economy than other European nations. France forced Germany to give up the deutschmark and adopt the euro in the hope that it would help contain Germany's economic rise. But in the end, euro or dm, the result is still the same.

Germany has many competitive advantages, this is true. But I take leave to question this idea that the Euro is meant to counteract Germany's strength and create a more level playing field. I even question whether France is or was opposed to Germany's economic rise - theirs is the strongest of all the bi-lateral relationships within the EU.

The Euro is artificially weak because it pools Germany's economy with the economies of much less prosperous and efficient member states. The Euro enables Germany to run a permanent balance of payments surplus without being hampered by a strong currency. This is why Germany goes to extraordinary lengths to "support" Greece - prolonging the economic hardship of the Greek people by preventing devaluation, which is the obvious remedy for their over-borrowed position.

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by ********

Actually it's fundamental to a completely free trading area.

If you remove the freedom to move any one of those four things, it's not completely free trade. If a company wants to do business in another country but can't send capital or staff to work there when required, it undermines the whole free market and downgrades it to a much more basic trade deal.

People have been coming and going between Britain and the EU for quite a while. The difference is that you used to have to have permission from the host country. In 1977 and again in 1986, I had to have a passport (but no visa requirement) Meanwhile we already had free trade in goods and services. Mrs Thatcher abolished exchange controls in October 1979 and we have had free movement of capital ever since then.

So really, what you describe as essential to a free trade area, we did not have until the Treaty of Maastricht and we were doing just fine. In the interests of politeness I merely point out that your argument is not based on fact.

[jacques22]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

Germany has many competitive advantages, this is true. But I take leave to question this idea that the Euro is meant to counteract Germany's strength and create a more level playing field. I even question whether France is or was opposed to Germany's economic rise - theirs is the strongest of all the bi-lateral relationships within the EU.

If you read articles or books about the talks between Mitterrand (the French president in the 1980's) and Kohl (the German chancellor then), the deal was to allow German reunification in exchange for Germany giving up the deutschmark:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/...-a-719940.html
http://uk.businessinsider.com/how-th...crisis-2014-11

Mitterrand's ulterior motives (containing Germany's economic power within a European structure) were obvious for historians. During WW2, Mitterrand was a prisoner in a German camp for a brief period and later feared as a president a too dominant Germany.

[deepsepia]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

There is no automatic link between these things. It is a political conceit to link them, no doubt part of the United Europe federalist ambition.

That is true, but here's the irony: had Britain never joined, its likely that sometime in the last decades it could have negotiated a free trade deal.

But this is an example of "path dependence" -- choices you made before change available options now.

And so the options available in leaving the EU are quite different than those that might have been obtained had Britain never joined.

[haroldeye]

The EU, says nothing about the French threatening to send in it's Navy to beat up some scallop fishermen and admits that the way Selmayr got his job was both wrong and not legal but they can't do anything about it.

Remind me why I voted for Brexit.

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by haroldeye

The EU, says nothing about the French threatening to send in it's Navy to beat up some scallop fishermen and admits that the way Selmayr got his job was both wrong and not legal but they can't do anything about it.

Remind me why I voted for Brexit.

I find the "scallop war" rather interesting as an example of the biter bit.

To be completely honest I strongly suspect that the British side are in the wrong here, and that the French scallop fishermen are trying to conserve stocks while the British fishermen are being selfish and greedy, and deserve a good slap. But of course this is precisely the self-same shit which has been ruining the British fishing industry ever since 1973. So while my pesky sense of fair play tells me not to support or protect the British fishermen who frankly are ripping out scallops off season and probably deserve exactly what they have been getting from the French side; I can't and don't feel one atom of sympathy for the French fishermen, even though I think they are being wronged. This is a taste of their own medicine.

Brexit will come to France's aid, if there is no agreement covering fisheries. But unfortunately it will mean that they won't be able to steal our fish any more either, and our waters are more extensive than theirs, so in net terms (geddit?) we will gain and they will lose. Meanwhile, Spanish and Belgian and Dutch and German boats will be slowly shut out of British waters as British enforcement action gains force and momentum, but will be entitled to come to the Seine Bay under the Common Fisheries Policy and will rip out scallops out of season because there are no common sense EU rules to prevent it.

"Common sense EU rules" - oxymoron of the day.

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by deepsepia

That is true, but here's the irony: had Britain never joined, its likely that sometime in the last decades it could have negotiated a free trade deal.

But this is an example of "path dependence" -- choices you made before change available options now.

And so the options available in leaving the EU are quite different than those that might have been obtained had Britain never joined.

But of course if the agenda is to be needlessly obstructive and to penalise Britain for leaving, then the name of the game ceases to be cooperation and becomes "lets piss in your coffee". Britain is rather good at "lets piss in your coffee" if that should turn out to be the new game.

[deepsepia]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

But of course if the agenda is to be needlessly obstructive and to penalise Britain for leaving, then the name of the game ceases to be cooperation and becomes "lets piss in your coffee". Britain is rather good at "lets piss in your coffee" if that should turn out to be the new game.

Well, consider this one: the Euro. The UK decided not to join the Euro, back in the day. As a result it can both be in the EU and not in the Euro. That option isn't really available to, say, Italy, Spain or Greece-- having once chosen to be in the Euro, to leave the Euro would carry with it a completely different set of costs, vs never having been in.

Its understandable that leaving the EU doesn't return you to the status quo ante