The Second World War.

[billybunter]

The sad thing about WW2 is that we all fought together against the Nazis and then we turned on each other. The Russians suffered the most. But they fought like dogs and took Berlin. We have a lot to thank them for. Pity Stalin was as demented as Hitler in the end.

[scoundrel]

The attack on Pearl Harbour was at the discretion of the Emperor of Japan and his ministers, of Admiral Yamamoto and the Imperial Japanese Navy. These people made the decisions. I do not share the view that FDR or anyone in his administration had prior knowledge that this attack was headed their way. They were not in the loop. Seventy years ago today, Admiral Nagumo had begun a voyage which for him personally ended in July 1944, when he shot himself in Saipan to avoid being taken prisoner. Admiral Nagumo executed the Pearl Harbour operation skilfully. He was criticised for not mounting a third wave of attack but the American carriers were out at sea, when the Japanese navy had wanted to catch them at anchor, and their land based air defences had shown much sharper teeth against the second wave assault on the land airfields. Nagumo's carrier force was irreplaceable and he knew it. The American island hopping counter-offensive under Admiral Halsey would have been quite unfeasible as long as Nagumo had such an effective carrier force with which to attack their troop and supply ships. He needed to keep that force in being and having failed to nail the American carriers at the harbourside, his correct tactic was to strike very hard but then do a fade as quickly as he could.

The attack on Pearl Harbour was motivated by the oil blockade imposed on Japan by FDR earlier in the year. FDR wanted to force Japan to withdraw her invasion forces from China and used a death option, preventing Japan from obtaining oil without which she could not continue her campaign. Rather than knuckle under, the Japanese decided to make war on America too. It was an incredibly foolish decision but went to show that peaceful sanctions have to be backed up by force of arms. America cut off Japan's oil supplies and made no preparations for the possibility that Japan would fight to reopen them. All the events on the ground in December 7th 1941 (December 8th in the Philippines, which is on the other side of the International Date Line) proved that US forces on the ground were entirely unprepared and totally on a peacetime footing. America experienced a string of shattering defeats due to this lack of preparedness, culminating in the fall of Corregidor, just a few weeks before Midway. The only place where US forces were prepared was Wake Island, where a small detachment of marines under a hated martinet called Major James Devereux fought a quite brilliant 15 day defensive action against overwhelming odds. Elsewhere, the Japanese achieved a complete surprise.

There is no evidence that Pearl Harbour was a false flag operation. There is exactly and precisely no evidence of this whatsoever. The scope of Imperial Japan's operations on 7-8 December 1941 was vast; she attacked the British in Malaya and in Hong Kong, she swept through international zones all over China (remember JG Ballard's account of what happened in Shanghai in Empire of the Sun); she attacked the Dutch East Indies as well. This was a massive assault on the Allied powers collectively. To call it a false flag operation is a very difficult case to argue. I certainly couldn't argue it.

[tygrkhat40]

Originally Posted by billybunter

Well, BB is going to say one thing. Pearl Harbor was a false flag. The US knew it was going to happen. They needed something to get the public to support joining the war. No offence meant. I have spoken to people who where there.

Here's the problem I have with the theory that FDR knew that the Japanese were going to attack Pearl Harbor and let it happen to get the US into the war. The Pacific War was not the war FDR wanted the US involved in. FDR wanted to aid Britain because he felt that Hitler was the bigger threat than the Japanese militarists. It can be argued that Hitler's unilateral declaration of war on the US was his biggest mistake of the war. Without Hitler's declaration, FDR cannot justify a war in Europe after the sneak attack on Pearl Harbor.

[billybunter]

If you research Scounds there is lots of evidence to support a false flag. I don't understand why you reject anything that is not mainstream propaganda. I had family in the navy and it was not a big secret.

[squigg58]

Apart from a complete lack of evidence to support it, the conspiracy theory that the US authorities knew of the attack, falls flat on it's face because if the US authorities had known that, they would have also known of the intention of Japan to make a formal declaration of war on the US. That declaration of war was released on the same day, and printed in Japanese newspapers that evening, and alone was enough to bring the US into the war (as declarations of war tend to do ... to state the obvious!)

There was no logical, rational or credible reason for FDR (or anyone else) to sacrifice military personnel who have always been held in high regard in The States.

[rlg118]

Originally Posted by jokerman

The second world war as we know it began on the first of September 1939 when Germany invaded Poland & lasted until the second of September 1945 When Japan finally surrendered. It cost millions of lives & divided Europe in two. It also saw the end of the old empires & the emergence of the U.S.A & the USSR as superpowers.

Actually, 1931, when the Japanese invaded Manchuria (the "Manchurian Incident"), which they renamed Manchukuo.

[rotobott]

We're already way off topic, might be best to be more specific, ie battle of the bulge, Dunkirk, concentration camps, etc

I know I like to have a laugh, but there could be some real interesting thoughts, maybe even actual experiences if we narrowed it down a bit.

[keefriff]

Originally Posted by rotobott

We're already way off topic, might be best to be more specific, ie battle of the bulge, Dunkirk, concentration camps, etc

I know I like to have a laugh, but there could be some real interesting thoughts, maybe even actual experiences if we narrowed it down a bit.

I agree w/ roto. It would be nice if we could decide on a specific topic and try and stay on that for a bit. I don't know but maybe discussions about specific battles, weapons, leaders, personal or family experiences etc. Military Channel here does a Top Ten weapons in different catagories eg planes, artillery, tanks. Maybe that kind of a topic theme might be easier to get our hands around.

Just a thought.

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by rotobott

We're already way off topic, might be best to be more specific, ie battle of the bulge, Dunkirk, concentration camps, etc

I know I like to have a laugh, but there could be some real interesting thoughts, maybe even actual experiences if we narrowed it down a bit.

WW2 is a very big topic. If we start talking about Queen Victoria and the Boer War, we might be getting off the reservation but so far I think we are on the topic. myself.

[rotobott]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

WW2 is a very big topic. If we start talking aboiut Queen Victoria and the Boer War, we might be getting off the reservation but so far I think we are on the topic. myself.

I thought we were heading a bit towards the conspiracies thread.

Speaking of which, if FDR knew about Pearl Harbour why not hold off till the last minute and then tell the military, then they shoot down more Jap planes lose less ships, and still get the support of the American public ?