Questions For Our Russian Friends

[SanteeFats]

The over population of red deer is a key reason why so much of the Scottish hill terrain is open moorland


See what happens when you don't let the hunters loose.

[9876543210]

scoundrel,

Originally Posted by scoundrel

There are proposals afoot to reintroduce the wolf into Britain, at least 300 years since it was eradicated from here.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-33017511

Now it would appear that to want to reintroduce the wolf and to be able to reintroduce the wolf are two very different things, but nevertheless the proposals are quite practical and might well happen. So I thought I might consult VEF members from a place where the wolf has never gone away, and ask if we should be worried?

Way back in the day (undergrad) I was lucky enough to earn a grant for a summer to study anything I wanted. So, since I was in Wildlife Ecology at the time and had an interest, I spent the summer running around the US pretty much investigating that same question. Wolves had been extirpated from Wisconsin long ago but not from our neighboring state Minnesota. A few wolves had just been found here so the state was trying to figure out what to do with them.

There has been extensive research here on their effects on all kinds of wildlife. All of it positive. Wolves, deer and moose populations are reliant on each other. Meaning that wolf populations cannot increase if they don't have an adequate prey population. Wolves are opportunistic so they will take livestock. But, if I remember correctly, they normally won't do that unless they can't find anything else. The reasons are unclear but we do know wolves are extremely smart. And a "pack" is more precisely described as a family. Meaning that the alpha male and female are from separate packs while most of the remaining members are the kids, aunts, uncles and possibly even the grandparents. All of that meaning that they appear to pass information down the line from parent to child. They seem to know that killing livestock may not be in their best interests.

Nowadays, most states with a wolf population have a reparations program which pay for any livestock taken by a pack.

Could go on and on but, to answer your question, you will have little to worry about if wolves are reintroduced. There are very few legitimate instances of wolves attacking humans. The few I know of were found to be cases of rabies.

The reason most people worry is due to old European children's stories which always depict wolves in a negative light. As just one example of how American Indians are 180 degrees in opposition, wolves are considered one of our greatest friends and allies.

You have nothing to worry about. If you want something interesting to read, pick up a book by Farley Mowat called 'Never Cry Wolf'. Been a long time since I read it but I'm sure its a pretty good read on your subject.

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by SanteeFats

The over population of red deer is a key reason why so much of the Scottish hill terrain is open moorland


See what happens when you don't let the hunters loose.

There is no ban on hunting in Scotland. People do shoot deer. But we don't allow total numpties to wander around on the landscape blazing away at everything that moves. If someone were to "accidentally" kill an old lady tending roses in her own back garden and then said in court that it was her own fault for being there; that someone would get life imprisonment with a minimum of 12 years. We call that "manslaughter" here.

Likewise, most of the land is someone's property and we are not Communists. You may not shoot deer on someone's land or even walk on it (away from public footpaths) without their express permission. Just as a golf course will not allow the public to stroll around where golf balls might land on their heads, so most Highland Estates will not allow Joe Public to wander anywhere they please, in a landscape where people with rifles are shooting at deer. In the Highlands, most landowners make money out of their hunting rights, and part of the deal is that you are accompanied by a Ghillie (a professional deer stalker) who knows how to find the deer and who will also make sure you are fit to hold and fire a rifle. It is especially heinous to try to shoot deer from distance when you can't bloody shoot straight and he will physically remove your rifle and escort you off his employer's land if you are unfit to shoot deer.

[9876543210]

scoundrel,

Originally Posted by scoundrel

The proposal appears to be a fenced-in nature reserve covering the Strathallen Estate, which is rather big and incorporates two glens [a glen is a mountain valley in Scotland] and a lot of hill terrain in between. What public footpaths there are in this land I couldn't say, but it is privately owned land and even the Ramblers Association has never argued that people should be allowed to go absolutely anywhere on private land. What I do not know is how wolves behave when humans are nearby. Do they do a fade, or do they put napkins around their necks?

Back in the 60's, 70's and 80's I used to go up to a national park area in northeastern Minnesota called the Boundary Waters Canoe Area. Its huge and probably bigger than some US states. If you include the Canadian side it would be bigger than many states.

Wolves were never extirpated from there and their populations are generally pretty good. Provided, of course, the the moose population is doing OK. As long as moose populations are high, wolf populations will be high.

Was probably up there for one or two weeks each year for around 20 years and ran into just about every type of wildlife you can imagine. Caught all kinds of fish from the lakes, stood off black bears hungry for our food and watched and enjoyed all kinds of birds. Supposedly, there are a lot of wolves in the area but we rarely saw them. We'd usually hear them at least once every year and occasionally run into their tracks. Especially down by the bases of waterfall. But they usually like to stay to themselves. I only remember actually seeing them once or twice in all that time.

So to answer your question, every wolf pack I've ever run into "does a fade". I know I'd have no problem going back up there today and camping out with them. The black bears are much more of a problem.

[9876543210]

Dr Pepper,

Originally Posted by Dr Pepper

Interesting proposal-I suppose an equally key question-which I'd like to think SOMEONE has asked in the process of putting this proposal together-is what is the likely rate of population growth in the wolf population if such a reintroduction was to go ahead?

My guess is that this will depend. Is the area in question fenced? Is the fence tall enough to keep the deer in (pretty tall order)? How big is the area to be fenced? Lots more questions.

My guess is this will mostly depend on the size of the pack thats reintroduced. At first they will be very wary and confused (they'll be wondering where the heck they are, how they got there and where are the missing members of their pack? But over time, as they become more familiar with their surroundings they'll become more confident and familiar. So if wolves populated the area previously they should do just fine. As has been well established, the wolf population, once they know the area and environment will probably grow for a time as their prey may not know how to deal with the wolves. But after a time wolf and prey populations will level off and actually begin to work in concert.

Has someone done any modelling?

Yes, many. If your interested, here's one analysis from Wisconsin done a few years ago. There are many, many others:

http://www.timberwolfinformation.org...appendix_e.htm

Reintroduction of an apex predator to control burgeoning pest species populations is fine.....in theory....until the predator species population grows to pest proportions themselves.....and/or starts to prey on domesticated animals rather than the pest it was introduced to control.....

Correct. But at least here in the US this isn't really much of a problem. If a farmer/rancher can prove they lost livestock due to wolf predation, the state pays them for the loss. Haven't seen any recent studies on expenditures but this was studied in Minnesota and, as I remember, it didn't cost much at all. Only a few thousand dollars annually.

Also saw something relevant a while back about the wolves of Yellowstone (which were also reintroduced recently). A very unintended consequence. Don't remember the whole story so I'll have to see if I can find it.

Wolves had been extirpated from Yellowstone for 80 years or so, so populations of their primary prey (American bison and Elk) had grown fairly large. I think wildlife managers were also having some type of problem with stream bank erosion which was brought about by the ungulates spending so much leisure time at the creeks. They were tearing up the creeks which was really messing up the water for the trout (which are a big tourist draw during the summer).

So park managers had, for quite a few years, been trying to figure out what to do about this situation as they rely on both the ungulates and trout to bring in tourists every summer. And then the wolves came back.

After a while, the ungulates learned they had to be a little more careful and couldn't hang around the creeks as much as they liked (the wolves found them more easily there). So they went to hang out elsewhere.

That decision by the ungulates allowed a plant (forget which one) which had been eaten by the ungulates to grow again. And once they were growing that allowed the stream banks to be covered and not so amenable to erosion. Which really pleased the trout as they now had cleaner water to live in.

This was a big revelation to the park managers. The reintroduction of wolves helped a plant which helped the waters which helped the trout to continue living in an environment of their choosing. Which continues to help Yellowstone bring in tourists and their money to the park every year.

All due to the wolf!

Two cautionary examples (of the dozens that exist) -both from my part of the world:

(1) rabbits .....
(2) Cane toads ....

One major difference here. Rabbits and cane toads were both introduced into environments where they were never known to be previously. Whereas, if I understand scoundrels article correctly, wolves were the apex predator at one time in Scotland so they, and their prey, should adjust fairly rapidly. Over time, the populations will adjust and balance.

[9876543210]

scoundrel,

Originally Posted by scoundrel

The over population of red deer is a key reason why so much of the Scottish hill terrain is open moorland rather than Scots Pine and other woodland; with similar, and harsher conditions, Norway is far more wooded. No new tree saplings can survive anywhere where the deer can browse; they are as bad as goats. They do indeed roam far and wide across the Scottish hills exactly like feral goats. This is why I don't simply dismiss the idea of wolf-reintroduction. Can people co-exist with wolves though?

See my post above about the unintended consequences of wolf reintroduction at Yellowstone.

And yes, people can co-exist with wolves. Large wolf populations exist around Ely, Minnesota and the people there rarely see them. Same in Montana and Wyoming. We have them in the northern part of Wisconsin but only a few hundred. My understanding is they've made little difference in deer populations. A harsh winter will kill more deer than almost any quantity of wolves.

I seem to recollect that there is a specialised breed of sheepdog which actively seeks out and attacks wolves. I also have a recollection that some farmers in Europe include a llama in their sheep flock and the llama will pick a fight with any wolf which comes near. Curiously, the wolves usually opt out if a dog or llama challenges them. They are looking for easy meat rather than glory in battle.

I've seen the same thing. Huge white dog with lots of hair (maybe several hundred pounds). They stay right with the sheep and you don't want to bother the sheep when they are around (as I remember). Saw something also about the llama's but just don't remember much.

I am far from convinced by the idea of bringing back the wolf, but if they ever do I will be intrigued to see how it goes.

If they decide to bring the wolves back they're going to need to figure out where to get them. If they don't get them from a very similar environment they may not be able to adapt fast enough. And they will need to figure out how to get the whole pack. Don't leave anyone behind. The pack will adapt better if all of their member are present. This will really reduce stress.

Keep us informed of how things are going. On this side of the pond we have a lot of experience with this. Probably lots of people willing to help as wolves are worth having around.

[Dr Pepper]

9876543210-nice to see your input into the discussion. Personally I'd like to see the wolves reintroduced-and wish the program every success. On one of your points raised: deer fences are no problem at all-here in NZ we have been farming deer for decades-since the 1970s-and deer fencing is relatively simple to construct and emplace. My first job after graduating with my PhD was working on improving deer bloodtyping tests at MAF Invermay. [The NZ domesticated population is largely red deer, wapiti (=elk) and hybrids-hard to separate on appearance alone]

How much it would cost to ring fence an entire estate/valley system is entirely another matter....

Furthermore-a deerproof fence might well keep the deer safely corralled within the boundaries-except perhaps in the 'roar'.....but will it keep the wolves in as well? For obvious reasons I have no direct experience of wolves-but the closest thing I am familiar with is the German shepherd/alsatian breed of dog (widely used by the NZ police)-and they will leap a fairly decent fence...!

My concerns as raised in my earlier post would be about how fast the wolf population grows-and what happens if they find local domestic stock a better prey option than the highland deer-and the predator prey relationship predictions fall apart. The real issue I suppose is how the local farmers will react to any such wolf incursions should they occur.

The other point that is pertinent-it is I gather-many hundreds of years since wolves were extirpated from the Scottish highlands-their prey species then would have been deer, sheep, goats and perhaps cattle (I suspect a Highland longhorn would be more than an average pack of wolves could reasonably cope with unless it was injured or sick)-but modern domesticated sheep and cattle breeds are likely to be much less hardy and aggressive than their semi wild forbears-and hence likely to be easier prey.

There has been talk of recreating extinct NZ species such as the moa-which would be spectacular if achieved-and is potentially achievable-just-with current technology. There is plenty of DNA material still around which could be exploited-and suitable sized modern vectors (emus, ostriches) in which the necessary manipulation would be achieved. But once you start that sort of thing where do you stop....why not do the Haast Eagle as well....;-)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haast%27s_eagle

That would make hunting a far more even contest.....the Maori have apocryphal stories of these birds having a crack at small children from time to time-I can at least believe it was possible given the size of the thing...

[9876543210]

Dr Pepper,

Originally Posted by Dr Pepper

9876543210-nice to see your input into the discussion. Personally I'd like to see the wolves reintroduced-and wish the program every success. On one of your points raised: deer fences are no problem at all-here in NZ we have been farming deer for decades-since the 1970s-and deer fencing is relatively simple to construct and emplace. My first job after graduating with my PhD was working on improving deer bloodtyping tests at MAF Invermay. [The NZ domesticated population is largely red deer, wapiti (=elk) and hybrids-hard to separate on appearance alone]

You're correct about deer fencing overall. If your raising commercially the fencing is just part of doing business. I was thinking about a friend of mine who has a really nice garden over in Iowa County (about 90 minutes west of here) and all the time we've spent building fences to try and keep the deer out of his garden. Whats the best way to explain this ................................? OK, he likes to jury rig everything as he doesn't have a lot of money. Not real good at planning a lot of things either. And always wants to do things his way (no matter what the experts say). So, I guess, we've had lots of interesting times building fences with little luck keeping the deer out. I do have to say though that the white tails we have here are damn good at jumping a six foot fence. No problem for them at all.

How much it would cost to ring fence an entire estate/valley system is entirely another matter....

Don't know about today's prices but it would be a lot. I used to work for one of the local Indian nations years ago and, as an aside, they asked me to survey the lines for some fences they were going to put in to hold American bison. Around 500 acres as I remember. Tens of thousands of dollars for the fencing to surround that.

Furthermore-a deerproof fence might well keep the deer safely corralled within the boundaries-except perhaps in the 'roar'.....but will it keep the wolves in as well? For obvious reasons I have no direct experience of wolves-but the closest thing I am familiar with is the German shepherd/alsatian breed of dog (widely used by the NZ police)-and they will leap a fairly decent fence...!

This same nation used to raise Red Deer and Elk so I'm thinking the top of the fences must have been 7 to 8 ft. tall. The "squares" in the wire fence were probably 4 in. or so. So this fence would definitely hold the deer and elk but probably not the wolves. The reason, in my opinion, would be that wolves are very intelligent and they would quickly learn to dig under it.

Don't know if there has been any research on this (I don't know of anyone even trying to fence in any more than one or two wolves, let alone an entire pack) but someone would have to bury the fence at least a few feet. Which would really add to the fence's cost.

I don't know max sizes for wolves/german shepherds/ alsations but I'm pretty sure a male wolf could probably reach 250 pounds or so while a german shepherd might get to 150 or 200 pounds. Pretty sure a wolf, generally, are the largest of the dog species.

My concerns as raised in my earlier post would be about how fast the wolf population grows-and what happens if they find local domestic stock a better prey option than the highland deer-and the predator prey relationship predictions fall apart. The real issue I suppose is how the local farmers will react to any such wolf incursions should they occur.

Again, there are a lot of variables, but my guess is that a pack introduced into an area where there are roughly 700,000 deer will do pretty well for quite a while. Initially, the deer aren't going to know what a wolf is so they'll be easy pickings. So the pack should grow rapidly over the first few years. And more than likely the pack will grow too fast so the young males will wind up having to leave on their own.

The problem will be that these young males will leave but won't be able to find mates. So new packs won't be able to be formed. Could they pair and mate with a Shepherd? Or some other breed? Mating yes. Pairing? I'm not sure. Haven't heard of any research on that.

As far as local farmers/ranchers are concerned, well, they require some education. In the US, virtually everywhere the wolves have been reintroduced, the farmers/ranchers are usually the first to voice their dissatisfaction. It happened here in Wisconsin as well as Montana and Wyoming. Every once in a while I hear it still happens in Minnesota as wolves are expanding their ranges into areas they were extirpated from years ago. But I still don't think there is a big problem as I never hear much about them causing much of a problem (at least in Wisconsin).

The other point that is pertinent-it is I gather-many hundreds of years since wolves were extirpated from the Scottish highlands-their prey species then would have been deer, sheep, goats and perhaps cattle (I suspect a Highland longhorn would be more than an average pack of wolves could reasonably cope with unless it was injured or sick)-but modern domesticated sheep and cattle breeds are likely to be much less hardy and aggressive than their semi wild forbears-and hence likely to be easier prey.

The first thing you really need to remember is that wolves are really smart. Probably one of the smartest animals on the planet. They have the ability to think strategically and tactically. Meaning that they are known to watch their prey for a long time, test their prey for weakness, and then send members of the pack to different locations in order to move their prey in a direction and to a location of the wolves choice. As far as I know they will usually always take the oldest and weakest first. But they are opportunistic. So will they take livestock if given the opportunity? Yes. But they seem to have learned, over the years and from interaction with humans, that livestock predation has consequences. So at least from my old knowledge, livestock predation happens but not that often. As long as there are funds to cover a farmer/ranchers losses, there shouldn't be a big deal.

There has been talk of recreating extinct NZ species such as the moa-which would be spectacular if achieved-and is potentially achievable-just-with current technology. There is plenty of DNA material still around which could be exploited-and suitable sized modern vectors (emus, ostriches) in which the necessary manipulation would be achieved. But once you start that sort of thing where do you stop....why not do the Haast Eagle as well....;-)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haast%27s_eagle

That would make hunting a far more even contest.....the Maori have apocryphal stories of these birds having a crack at small children from time to time-I can at least believe it was possible given the size of the thing...

Well, theres a whole other kettle of fish. I've heard people are finding entire Mastodon carcasses up in the Arctic in Russia. Some talk of bringing them back. What the heck, I like the idea of bringing Tyrannosaurus Rex and a few of his buddies back. What could possibly go wrong?

[otokonomidori]

Originally Posted by 9876543210

...you don't want to bother the sheep...

Unless you're Welsh.

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by otokonomidori

Unless you're Welsh.

I wouldn't put it past you to kidnap one of the wolves and keep it for a guard dog. Your existing pets would probably bully it, poor thing.