The Military History Thread

[palo5]

Originally Posted by crinolynne

Nonsense, Britain was in no way close to defeat. German invincibilty was and is a myth. America did not save anyone's ass. What they did was ensure that the Soviet Union did not win.

You can't pick and choose the facts to support your need to make emotive and pejorative statements. Well you can, but your credibility disappears toute suite.

Well, I didn't say America saved your ass in WW2. But they made it more comfortable. You'd have been hungry and very short of equipment and in most cases unable to fight otherwise. And I agree that the "German juggernaut" was a myth, but must remind you that the British invented that myth -- how else could they explain that their own "magnificent fighting forces" could be beaten so fast in France? That's how, of course. Acceptable propaganda, if you know no one can put to the test for a few years. I might have used it in your position

If you think that's a pejorative statement, you're wrong. It's all fact

[haroldeye]

Not all fact Palo but I tend to agree with you. Without the USA we would have been both hungry and short of equipment. But doubtless we would have muddled through. Thankfully for the Soviets we kept on fighting, not enough to beat the Nazis but enough to stop them beating the Soviets.

Consider that the British and Empire had made a peace treaty with Hitler (a bit like that nice Mr Molotov had done). Doubtless we would have had to allow Adolf access to the oil fields that we controlled and I'm sure British manufacturers would have been delighted to sell all sorts of weapons and warlike stores to the Germans. Barbarossa could have started a couple of months earlier and with a lot more resources as the Germans wouldn't have had to commit men and materiel to North Africa, Yugoslavia and Greece. Moreover as those nasty little Brits wouldn't be playing sailors the Med would be a convenient and safe route through to the Black sea. And then that Atlantic wall, all the money and manpower spent on that could have been used to much better effect in the East. And all those evil bomber raids on German infrastructure and the blockade of Germany wouldn't have happened.

Just a what if

[haroldeye]

Originally Posted by Mal Hombre

He did it because David Lloyd George was a conniving selfserving scumbag with all the scruples of an alley cat.The Somme and 3rd Ypres were victories,Costly undoubtedly but victories never the less,On the Western Front the key was attrition,"The Devil's Arithmetic",The German Army lost more troops than the Allies and could not replace Them.

Come on Mal, stop sticking up for Lloyd George. He was nowhere near as decent as that.

[rupertramjet]

Originally Posted by palo5

Well, I didn't say America saved your ass in WW2. But they made it more comfortable. You'd have been hungry and very short of equipment and in most cases unable to fight otherwise. And I agree that the "German juggernaut" was a myth, but must remind you that the British invented that myth -- how else could they explain that their own "magnificent fighting forces" could be beaten so fast in France? That's how, of course. Acceptable propaganda, if you know no one can put to the test for a few years. I might have used it in your position

If you think that's a pejorative statement, you're wrong. It's all fact

From my very first lesson in History, at about seven, I was taught that Britain was totally unprepared for War in 1939. I remember my teacher saying 'We sent the two tanks and put the dozen or so aircraft in the sky'. We are taught we lost ground so quickly because we were not ready! Only Churchill saw the true threat of Hitlers Germany, and he was laughed at, mocked, and out of office in the thirties, when it mattered.

Molotov of course, knew better, which was why he signed up to the devilish little deal, to steal half of Poland, which the Red Army had failed so much to win in 1920. Russia knew the strength of German Armed Forces, they had first hand experience:

The Reichswehr and the Red Army began a secret collaboration in the Soviet Union to evade the Treaty of Versailles occupational agent, the Inter-Allied Commission. In 1926, War games and tests were begun at Kazan and Lipetsk. The centres were used to field test aircraft and armoured vehicles up to the battalion level and housed aerial and armoured warfare schools, through which officers were rotated

Yet the Germans advanced from the start line to Moscow, despite their being weak and mediocre and NOT having a juggernaut! Impressive eh?

Russia can not make any claims in WWI, you surrendered and when you were fighting, with the exception of the Brusilov Offensive of 1916, you were pretty inept!

I really do not understand what it is with you palo. We are a small Island and for centuries have punched above our weight, despite what you believe in 1940, we and our Empire stood alone against Hitler, perhaps we should have taken the peace terms, but we may be small but we are proud, and whatever you think or say, we fought, whilst your leaders supped champagne with the same people who stabbed Molotov in the back.

The British contributors on here are proud of their nation, as you are, and we do not belittle your former homeland. Bur we notice you do not live in it?

[crinolynne]

Originally Posted by rupertramjet

F

The British contributors on here are proud of their nation, as you are, and we do not belittle your former homeland. Bur we notice you do not live in it?

Being from Britain, living in Canada: it is my contention that the Canadian contribution to Britain's survival is under stated. The massive effort to sustain the Atlantic supply routes was critical. The fact that a Canadian, Lord Beaverbrook made it all work is also undervalued.

[Mal Hombre]

Originally Posted by Mal Hombre

Somme casualties

Nationality Total

Casualties Killed &
missing POW

United Kingdom 350,000+ - -
Canada 24,029 - -
Australia 23,000 < 200
New Zealand 7,408 - -
South Africa 3,000+ - -
Newfoundland 2,000+ - -
Total British
Commonwealth 419,654[57] 95,675 -
French 204,253[57] 50,756 -
Total Allied 623,907 146,431 -
Germany 465,000–600,000 164,055 38,000

Very true.

[haroldeye]

Originally Posted by crinolynne

Being from Britain, living in Canada: it is my contention that the Canadian contribution to Britain's survival is under stated. The massive effort to sustain the Atlantic supply routes was critical. The fact that a Canadian, Lord Beaverbrook made it all work is also undervalued.

Not just the Canadian Navy which guarded the supply lines, or the bombers based in the North East of England (who gave us Ice Hockey as well) and the Canadian ground forces, but there was a little known provision of young Canadians to help officer the British battalions fighting in NW Europe. Canada have men of the right quality to spare.

[Ennath]

August 14, 1904
Battle of Ulsan

At the start of the Russo-Japanese War, the bulk of the Russian Pacific Fleet was blockaded at Port Arthur. However, the Russian subsidiary naval base at Vladivostok, although shelled by a Japanese squadron in March 1904, remained largely undamaged. At Vladivostok was a guard squadron consisting of the protected cruiser Bogatyr and auxiliary cruiser Lena and the Vladivostok Independent Cruiser Squadron consisting of the armored cruisers Rossia, Rurik, and Gromoboi. This force was under the command of Rear Adm. Karl Essen.

The Independent Cruiser Squadron made 6 sorties for commerce raiding in 1904, sinking 15 transports and operating off the coast of Japan. As a result of these raids, the Japanese were forced to assign 2nd Fleet under Vice Adm. Kamimura Hikonojo to locate and destroy the Russian squadron. Kamimura’s failure to do so on several occasions created considerable adverse public comment in Japan.

A telegram from the 1st Pacific Squadron at Port Arthur reached Vladivostok on August 11, stating that Adm. Wilgelm Vitgeft had decided to attempt to break through the Japanese blockade, and Essen was ordered to sortie the Vladivostok Cruiser Squadron to assist. However, as late as August 5, a telegram had been received from Vitgeft stating his intention to perish with Port Arthur, so the Vladivostok cruisers took time to get ready for action. Owing to the delay in sailing, there was little hope of being able to assist the 1st Pacific Squadron at the critical passage of the Tsushima Straits; however on the assumption that Vitgeft would be successful, the 2 squadrons planned to rendezvous in the Sea of Japan.

The Vladivostok Cruiser Squadron formed in a line abreast at intervals of 4 nautical miles and headed south at 14 knots in hourly expectation of sighting the Port Arthur Squadron. However, the Port Arthur Squadron had not been sighted by the following morning. As the Vladivostok Cruiser Squadron approached Pusan, Essen advised his captains that he had no intention of attempting to pass Tsushima Straits, and ordered the squadron back to Vladivostok.

Japanese 2nd Fleet was made up of the armored cruisers Izumo, Azuma, Tokiwa, and Iwate, and protected cruisers Naniwa and Takachiho. The Japanese squadron had passed very close to the Russians in the dark of the previous night on opposite courses but neither was aware of the other. From 0130 on August 14, Kamimura had been heading back on a course that took him directly to the Russian squadron. When Essen started his turn back to Vladivostok, he sighted the Japanese armored cruisers. The situation was ideal for the Japanese; it was dawn on a fine summer day, and the enemy was as far from Vladivostok as it was possible to be in the Sea of Japan, with the Japanese between them and their distant base.

At 0520 the fleets had closed to 8500 yards and the Japanese opened fire first. For unknown reasons, Kamimura ordered fire concentrated on Rurik, the last and weakest in the Russian column. Subjected to twice the bombardment administered to her stronger comrades, Rurik lost most of her officers in a short time, and although badly damaged, remained afloat, the diminishing number of survivors continuing to fire the few remaining guns until the last, in a display of heroism that won the admiration of the Japanese.

On the easterly run the Japanese ships took some hits, but nothing comparable to what they inflicted. It was assumed that when the Russians sheered away, Kamimura would have pressed his advantage closer. Inexplicably, this did not happen. Kamimura held his course during the Russian turn, and when he ordered his forces to turn a few minutes later, it was to a new tack that actually lengthened rather than narrowed the range.

The remaining Russian cruisers tried to cover Rurik, but with increasing damage, Essen decided at 0830 to scuttle Rurik, and save his other ships by heading back towards Vladivostok. The Japanese cruisers pursued for some time, and firing continued, with more damage to the Russian cruisers and slight damage to Iwate and Azuma. The Russians were in a far worse condition than the Japanese, but Kamimura then made another controversial decision; after pursuit of only 3 hours, and with long daylight steaming hours between the Japanese cruisers and Vladivostok, at 1115 he broke off the chase, and turned back towards Pusan.

Despite Kamimura’s failure to destroy the 2 remaining Russian cruisers, he was hailed as a hero in Japan. Although 2 Russian cruisers escaped, their damage was greater than what the limited repair facilities at Vladivostok could handle, and the Vladivostok Cruiser Squadron never threatened Japanese shipping again.

[Ennath]

August 15, 1511
Fall of Malacca

Founded at the beginning of the 15th century, the Malayan city-state of Malacca was the gateway for all trade between China and India. As a result of its ideal position, the city harbored many communities of merchants, the most influential being the Muslim Gujaratis and Javanese, Hindus from the Coromandel Coast, and Chinese. The city however was built on swampy ground and surrounded by inhospitable tropical forest, and needed to import everything for its sustenance. Malacca kept a group of captured cannibals from New Guinea to whom were fed the perpetrators of serious crimes.

The Portuguese first made contact with Malacca in 1506, but were turned away. Unimpressed with the lack of results, in April 1508, King Manuel decided to dispatch a fleet directly to Malacca, composed of 4 ships under Diogo Lopes de Sequeira. By April 1509 the fleet was in Cochin and the Viceroy, Dom Francisco de Almeida, added another carrack. The decision was not entirely innocent, as aboard traveled several supporters of Almeida’s political rival, Afonso de Albuquerque.

The expedition arrived in Malacca in September 1509 and immediately Sequeira sought to contact the Chinese merchants, who invited him aboard one of their trade junks and received him very well, and arranged ameeting with Sultan Mahmud. The Sultan promptly granted the Portuguese authorization to establish a feitoria and provided a vacant building for that purpose. Wary of the threat that the Portuguese posed to their interests, however, the powerful merchant communities of Muslim Gujaratis and Javanese convinced the Sultan to betray and capture the Portuguese.

Sequeira in the meantime was so taken with the Sultan that he disregarded the information obtained from a Persian innkeeper of preparations to destroy the fleet, confirmed even by the Chinese. He was playing chess aboard his flagship when the Malaccan fleet, disguised as merchants, ambushed the Portuguese. The Portuguese repelled every boarding attempt, but faced with sheer numbers and unable to land any forces to rescue the Portuguese in the feitoria, Sequeira made the decision to sail back to India before the monsoon started, but not without first sending a message to the Sultan in the form of two captives each with an arrow through their skulls as a testimony to what would happen to them, should any harm come to the 20 Portuguese left behind who surrendered.

Back in India, Sequeira heard in Travancore that Albuquerque had succeeded Almeida as Governor. Fearful of reprisals from Albuquerque for previously supporting Almeida, Sequeira promptly set sail back to Portugal in April. At the same time, King Manuel dispatched another smaller fleet under Diogo de Vasconcelos to trade directly with Malacca, on the assumption that de Sequeira had been successful. Vasconcelos arrived in Angediva Island in August 1510 where he found Governor Albuquerque, resting his troops after failing to capture Goa, and revealed his orders to sail to Malacca. Albuquerque was fully aware that for Vasconcelos to proceed to Malacca with such a meager force was suicide, and managed to convince him to, reluctantly, aid him in capturing Goa later that year instead.

With the city firmly in Portuguese hands by December, Vasconcelos insisted that he be allowed to proceed to Malacca, which was denied. Vasconcelos mutinied and attempted to sail against orders, for which he was imprisoned and his pilots hanged. Albuquerque assumed direct command of the expedition and in April 1511 departed from Cochin along with 1000 men and 18 ships.

During the passage, the armada lost a galley and an old carrack. At Sumatra, the fleet rescued 9 escaped Portuguese; they informed Albuquerque that the city was internally divided. By July 1, the armada arrived at Malacca, firing salvos and causing great commotion in the harbor. Albuquerque declared that no ship could sail without his permission and tried to negotiate the safe return of the remaining prisoners, but the Sultan replied with vague and evasive answers, trying to buy time to fortify the city and call back the fleet, whose admiral the Portuguese identified as Lassemane. Albuquerque in the meantime kept receiving messages from the prisoner Rui de Araújo, who informed Albuquerque of the Sultan’s military strength. The Sultan could muster 20,000 men, including Turkish and Persian bowmen, hundreds of artillery pieces and 20 war elephants, but he noted that the artillery was crude and lacking enough gunners.

The Sultan on his part was not too intimidated by the small Portuguese force. After stalled negotiations, in mid July the Portuguese bombarded the city. Startled, the Sultan promptly released the prisoners and Albuquerque then took the chance to demand heavy reparations and authorization to build a fortress wherever he wished. The Sultan refused. Presumably, Albuquerque had anticipated this response. He gathered his captains and revealed that the assault would take place the following morning, July 25.

During the negotiations, Albuquerque was visited by representatives of several merchant communities, such as the Hindus and Chinese, who expressed their support. Albuquerque requested no more than several barges to help land troops, saying that he did not wish the Chinese to suffer reprisals should the attack fail, which left the Chinese with a very good impression.

Albuquerque divided his force in 2 groups, a smaller one under Dom João de Lima and a larger one which he commanded personally. The landing commenced at 2 AM. While the Portuguese fleet bombarded positions on shore, the infantry rowed onto the beaches on either side of the city’s bridge, immediately coming under artillery fire from the Malaccan stockades, though it was largely ineffective. Albuquerque landed his forces west of the bridge, known as Upeh, whereas Dom João de Lima landed on the east side, Ilher, where the Sultan’s palace and a mosque were located. Once ashore, the Portuguese threw the barges’ protective pavises on the sand to walk over the caltrops and gunpowder mines scattered about. The Portuguese now charged the defenses, shattering resistance almost immediately. With the stockades overcome, Albuquerque pushed the defenders back to the main street and proceeded towards the bridge, where they faced stiff resistance and an attack from the rear.

On the east side, Dom João faced a counter-attack by the war elephants, commanded by the Sultan himself, his son Alauddin and his son-in-law, the Sultan of Pahang. Briefly shaken, the Portuguese raised their pikes and attacked the royal elephant, causing it to panic, scattering the other elephants and throwing the troops that followed into disarray. By mid-day, the 2 groups met at the bridge, surrounding the last defenders who jumped to the river where they were intercepted by Portuguese landing barge crews. With the bridge secure, the Portuguese raised a canvas to protect the exhausted infantry from the intense sun. The assault was called off however when Albuquerque realized how short on provisions they were, and ordered the troops to embark again, setting the royal palace and the mosque on fire along the way.

In early August, the Portuguese tried again. This time, Albuquerque landed the entirety of his force, divided in 3 groups, on the western side of Malacca, supported by a small caravel, a galley and landing barges armed as gunboats. Once ashore, the Portuguese again quickly overcame the defenses and recaptured the bridge, by then devoid of defenders. On either side the Portuguese set up barricades with barrels full of dirt, where they placed artillery. From the east side a squadron proceeded to assault the mosque, and again shattered the defenders after a drawn out struggle. With the bridge fortified and secured, and with enough provisions, Albuquerque ordered a few units into the town to neutralize gun emplacements on the rooftops, cutting down any who resisted, with the loss of many civilians. On August 7, as the Sultan's resistance waned, Albuquerque decided take full control of the city, eliminating any remaining pockets of resistance. The cleanup operation took 8 days. Unable to oppose the Portuguese any further, the Sultan gathered his royal treasure and what remained of the his forces and retreated into the jungle.

With the city secured, Albuquerque ordered a sack, in the most orderly manner possible. For 3 days, from morning to nightfall, groups were given a limited time to run in turns to the city and return to the beach with whatever they could carry back. They were strictly forbidden from sacking the property of Chinese, Hindus, Javanese and Burmese, who had supported the Portuguese and were given flags to mark their households. Nevertheless, the plunder was immense.

The operation cost the Portuguese 28 dead, plus many more wounded. Despite the Sultan's impressive number of artillery pieces and firearms, they were largely ineffective. Most of the Portuguese casualties were caused by poisoned arrows.

The Sultan was evicted, but not out of the fight. He retreated a few mile south, to the mouth of the Muar River where he met up with the armada and set up camp, waiting for the Portuguese to abandon the city once they were done sacking it. In May 1512, the Portuguese, along with over 2000 local allies, forced the Sultan out of his encampment by the Muar. The Sultan then retreated to the Pahang Sultanate, where he narrowly avoided an assassination attempt. Afterwards, he moved to Bintan, an island-kingdom near Singapore that he usurped to wage war on the Portuguese in Malacca, harassing the city, its trade and sabotaging its relations with China, until the Portuguese eventually devastated Bintan in 1526, returning it to its rightful ruler and vassalizing the kingdom. His son, Alauddin, would go on to found the Sultanate of Johor, and develop more or less pragmatic relations with the Portuguese.

[Ennath]

August 16, 1419
Siege of Vysehrad

After the death of King Wenceslaus IV of Bohemia, Queen Sophia tried to gain control of Prague before the Hussites. Sophia recruited soldiers from Germany, who took up positions at Vysehrad, Hradcany, and at the archbishop’s palace and the cloister of St. Thomas in Prague’s New Town in mid August 1419. The Hussite uprising was successful in other parts of Bohemia, and the towns of Klatovy, Písek, Louny, Zatec, and Plzen came under Hussite control. On October 25, Hussites captured Vysehrad as well.

In November, fighting took place between Catholic crusaders under Petr von Sternberk and Hussite peasants under the command of a priest, Ambrosius. These Hussites marched from the area near Usti to Prague, surrounded Novy Knin, and attacked. After gaining reinforcements, Ambrosius’ forces crossed the Vltava River and defeated the crusaders. After taking Prague, the Hussites decided to assist citizens in New Town. They captured the bridge on the Vltava, forcing the Catholics to withdraw to Hradcany, but many buildings in New Town were destroyed.

On November 13, Queen Sophia promised to tolerate and protect the Hussites in all of Bohemia. Vysehrad was returned to the royal army.

Later in November, a corps of Taborites, the more radical Hussite faction, several hundred strong, left Prague. In December, one of these formations under the command of Jan Zizka was surprised by Catholic forces under the command of Bohuslav of Svamberk at Nekmierz (Nekmer). The Hussites formed a wagon fort well supplied with light guns, crossbows and handguns and repulsed the Catholic heavy cavalry. After the battle Zizka ordered a night march to Plzen.

In the Spring of 1420, after capturing the town of Usti (Aussig), Hussite forces went to Mount Tabor where they built a new town which took the mountain's name. This became the capital of the Taborite collective. Citizens chose four generals: Nicholas of Husí, Jan Zizka, Zbynek of Buchovo, and Chval of Machovice.

The Hussites lost Plzen, but a force under Zizka escaped without difficulty. Catholics from Plzen sent information about Zizka to Bohuslav. After massing at Sudomer, the crusaders decided to attack, counting on their numerical superiority and their armored cavalry. Zizka deployed at a small dam between two ponds, one of which was dry at the time, and again formed a wagon fort. The Hussite rear was protected by a swamp. The Catholic commanders divided their forces into 2 groups. The first attacked from the front and took heavy losses. The second group of knights crossed the dry pond and attacked on foot. Soon the field of battle was covered by fog, but eventually the Catholics withdrew. Both sides suffered heavy losses.

In May 1420 Cenek von Wartenberg surrounded Hradcany and joined Emperor Sigismund’s Catholic faction. With local nobles apparently unable to deal with the Hussite heresy, the Emperor decided that Imperial troops should take a more active role. In response, the Hussites began a siege of Vysehrad.

On June 12, 1420, Imperial forces succeeded in running a supply convoy into the besieged position at Hradcany. Shortly thereafter, the Imperial garrisons in Hradcany and Vysehrad attacked out into the rest of Prague. After initial success, they ran up against a Hussite position on Vitkov Hill which repulsed a series of attacks and the crusaders were forced to retire back to their start points. The Hussites followed with a steady bombardment of the crusader positions. In late October, the Imperial commander in Vysehrad agreed to surrender if not relieved by 8 AM on November 1.

Emperor Sigismund, now commanding in person, planned an attack by the local garrisons and reinforcements from Plzen. The plan was sent to the besieged positions, but the courier was captured by the Hussites. A Hussite force under Zizka was sent to intercept the Plzen force. Again the wagon fort stopped the Imperial heavy cavalry, and a counterattack the drove the Imperials from the field. 400 knights were killed, as the Hussites took no prisoners. The besieged garrison of Vysehrad duly surrendered on November 1.

In January 1421, Taborite forces captured the town of Stríbro and the cloister in Krakikov. The commandant of Stríbro Castle, Bohuslav of Svamberk, surrendered; his soldiers were free to go. Because Sigismund didn't ransom him, Bohuslav decided to join the Hussites. Eventually the Taborites chose him as their hetman. In February, Emperor Sigismund withdrew to Moravia and then to Hungary. In June, the Hradcany garrison finally surrendered.