Current Politics in the United Kingdom

[seany65]

Originally Posted by vinceprince

Question for 'leavers'?
If you're not happy with the likely 'very soft Brexit deal' who are you going to vote for in our FPTP system?

The Tories again who made the deal?
UKIP who will likely get votes but hardly any seats and likely just split the Tory vote and let in Corbyn as PM?
Great system isn't it?

If there's an election before Brexit, then, unfortunately, I'd have to vote tory.

I'd feel sick doing it, but as brexit seems to be a 'once only' thing, I'd vote tory in order to get it.

If there's an election after brexit, there will be no-one I can vote for unless certain policies are changed:

Tories: I couldn't vote for them under any circumstances.

LibDems: Would have to abandon their disgraceful arse licking of the EU and wanting the uk back in the eu with more integration.

Labour: I'd have to be sure they wouldn't take us back into the eu, and they'd have to drop the policy of "Prioritising black and ethnic families to (keep/ensure?) diversity" according to my memory of the photo of diane abbott posing in front of a poster that said that, as was posted on this forum.

Greens: they'd have to drop their (quite difficult to find) policy of not putting women in prison for committing certain crimes "because of the social consequences". I get the inpression they'd still put men in prison for committing those crimes though. I presume they are in favour of going back into the EU, so no vote form me on that count anyway.

UKIP: The only reason to vote for them would be to get another brexit referendum, and as brexit had happened (in this scenario) there'd be no reason for voting for a party that's to the right of the tories.

BNP, NF, BM, 'Third Way', League of Saint George, etc.: Nope.

[otokonomidori]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

[*]Means test winter fuel allowance for the elderly.

You reckon rich pensioners need the money? Bernie Ecclestone?

I'm not rich per se yet I use the heating allowance to pay my annual house insurance premium.

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by otokonomidori

You reckon rich pensioners need the money? Bernie Ecclestone?

I'm not rich per se yet I use the heating allowance to pay my annual house insurance premium.

If we feel strongly that we can't afford to stump up £200 (£100 each if you are a couple) a year for all our pensioners to pay for their additional heating costs, then a fair way to deal with this would be make the payment taxable, just as the state pension was made taxable. In this way, those with enough income to exceed the personal tax free income allowance would pay income tax on it.

Frankly, I think its pretty desperate if we have been reduced to skimming income tax off the winter fuel allowance, let alone means testing it; and I am as tight as a duck's arse, as you know.

[palo5]

Originally Posted by Roger Allott

This is one of the few Tory policies I do strongly endorse. Grammar schools were first class mechanisms for social mobility and evolution to a more meritocratic society...

Is that where they decide a person's fate at age 10 or 11? If that's true, I'd forget it, seriously

You could probably learn from Finland, because they're streets ahead of you in education. But it would probably shock you, because their system contradicts many English practices. For example, starting school at age 7, almost no homework, only about 1 test a year, no school inspections. No streaming and no private education

They also have properly qualified teachers with at least 5-year degrees, meaning the French teachers can speak near-perfect French instead of some semi-literate babble, the German teachers speak fluent German, the math teachers can count etc etc

It's really noticeable how they get 2 years less education, but they're far better educated by the time they're 16. Check out the OECD PISA tests -- it's true

As for Brexit... everyone knows it will be a traincrash, and you have been BS'd up to your eyeballs by people who knew they were lying. Do everything you can to can to cancel it!

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by palo5

As for Brexit... everyone knows it will be a traincrash, and you have been BS'd up to your eyeballs by people who knew they were lying. Do everything you can to can to cancel it!

Stop the world...I want to get off.,

I would never have held the 2016 referendum, and the problems presently being lived through are one of the reasons why not. But it is silly to think we can reboot and restore the status quo ante. As soon as the referendum was called the tectonic plates were permanently moved. I honestly believe history will condemn David Cameron for doing such a grave and far-reaching thing for such a selfish and trivial reason. But once the question of our continuing membership was put to me I had to consider that it was not a choice between the continuing present and a radical new futures, but a choice between two radical new futures.

1. Continued EU membership but on far weaker terms, with all our most antagonistic EU "partners" knowing that we are a bunch of pussies who talked big but ran away when the fight started.
2. A future based on regained sovereignty and the freedom to make our choice, be they right or wrong.

There is no reversing this process. We will seek the best possible accommodation with the EU and we will stand on our own feet, same as we have stood for many years before the EU even existed. For sure the future is uncertain, but it is no more uncertain than the future has ever been.

[palo5]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

1. A future based on regained sovereignty and the freedom to make our choice, be they right or wrong

I know that's what concerns you most, but you're so wrong. By leaving the EU you're reducing democracy in UK. You have the most undemocratic election system in Europe, where more than half the votes don't count

That means your laws are always made by unrepresentative governments

Apart from which, you'll still have to comply with EU laws, if you want to sell anything. You'll be able to change nothing. But you'll be diminished in every way

Good luck with the trade deals

[otokonomidori]

Originally Posted by palo5

You have the most undemocratic election system in Europe, where more than half the votes don't count

Better than a system where who counts the votes is what counts.

[Puhbear69]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

[...]

1. Continued EU membership but on far weaker terms, with all our most antagonistic EU "partners" knowing that we are a bunch of pussies who talked big but ran away when the fight started.
2. A future based on regained sovereignty and the freedom to make our choice, be they right or wrong.

[...]

Sovereignty ?
So -as an argumentation ... hence- it was the damned right of the German Nazis between 1935 to 1945 to install the " Nuremberg Laws " in Germany ???

That just cannot be true !!!

Sorry, such a nonsense!

[seany65]

Originally Posted by Puhbear69

Sovereignty ?
So -as an argumentation ... hence- it was the damned right of the German Nazis between 1935 to 1945 to install the " Nuremberg Laws " in Germany ???

That just cannot be true !!!

Sorry, such a nonsense!

Puhbear69, are you saying that the only way to avoid fascism is for every country in Europe to join a Europe-wide organisation, which is forever talking about 'ever closer union' under the auspices of a single European Government, which wants a unified Eurpoean superstate which has a central bank, a single legal system and single set of armed forces, all run by a few politicians and bureacrats? Which means each and every country in the EU has to give up more and more control over itself to politicians from other countries that were not voted for by the population of that country?

Do you think the EU is the only way to avoid fascism?

Do you think the EU is any way to avoid fascism?

Do you think the EU has the right to make it's own choices and that they could be right or wrong choices?

If so then what's wrong with the UK (or any other country) deciding to make it's own choices, especially when they realise they could be right or wrong choices?

[Puhbear69]

Originally Posted by seany65

Puhbear69, are you saying that the only way to avoid fascism is for every country in Europe to join a Europe-wide organisation, which is forever talking about 'ever closer union' under the auspices of a single European Government, which wants a unified Eurpoean superstate which has a central bank, a single legal system and single set of armed forces, all run by a few politicians and bureacrats? Which means each and every country in the EU has to give up more and more control over itself to politicians from other countries that were not voted for by the population of that country?

Do you think the EU is the only way to avoid fascism?

Do you think the EU is any way to avoid fascism?

Do you think the EU has the right to make it's own choices and that they could be right or wrong choices?

If so then what's wrong with the UK (or any other country) deciding to make it's own choices, especially when they realise they could be right or wrong choices?

Some of our English friends are badly needing to widen their (at least only European-) view !

Have a look what's happening in Poland today, what's happening in Hungary and in parts in Czechia; and German government itself must be restrained several times at the European court, because the opposition failed at the German high court (sorry, I can't remember those actual examples at the moment). And it has been necessary in my opinion.

It has not necessarily something to do with fascism, much more with human rights and/or the rights of a democracy (the separation of powers !).