Communism. Good or bad. What do you really know about Communism?

[Arturo2nd]

Originally Posted by deepsepia

Stalin has the Soviet Union's only leading military man who really understands modern warfare, Mikhail Tukhachevsky, murdered.

Georgy Zhukov survived the purges and played a major role in defeating the Nazis and their allies in World War II. He remarked in his memoirs that the purges were totally unnecessary, that Tukhachevsky and the other generals were devoted Soviet patriots, and that their removal created total chaos on the Western Front.

Historians believe that for some weird reason that Stalin decided Hitler could be trusted and was genuinely paralyzed with shock when the invasion started. The slow response and the lack of coordination and preparation among the Soviet defense forces would have been disastrous but for the huge size of the Soviet Union, the toughness and resilience of the Russian soldiers, and Hitler's failure to appreciate the effectiveness of "General Winter."

[deepsepia]

Originally Posted by Brian249x

Georgy Zhukov survived the purges and played a major role in defeating the Nazis and their allies in World War II. He remarked in his memoirs that the purges were totally unnecessary, that Tukhachevsky and the other generals were devoted Soviet patriots, and that their removal created total chaos on the Western Front.

Zhukov really says what needs to be said:
"Many thousands of outstanding party workers, members of the armed forces, faithful patriots of the motherland and talented leaders of the country were annihilated by the order of Stalin,'' the marshal wrote of the period from 1937 to 1939. ''Of course, one cannot forgive Stalin.''

"One cannot forgive Stalin" -- that's really all there is to say, IMO

Originally Posted by Brian249x

Historians believe that for some weird reason that Stalin decided Hitler could be trusted and was genuinely paralyzed with shock when the invasion started.

I'm skeptical of this assessment. If Stalin thought he could trust Hitler, that would be the only occasion he ever believed he could trust anyone. The intensity of Hitler's anti-Bolshevism alone was telling.

Like many things with Stalin, we're left wondering. My assessment is that Stalin always feared internal enemies more than external, again that goes back to the observation that he's a professional revolutionary and conspirator. What he isn't is a soldier-- people tend to see deeper into what they know; Stalin knew conspiracy, but he didn't know war.

[Roubignol]

Originally Posted by deepsepia

You are managing to systematically misinform yourself, and you're remarkably eager to find some justification, however flimsy, for Stalin murdering his own people. Stalin's purges decimate the Red Army, such that they basically fight a draw with Finland in 1940, and they are grossly unprepared for War with Germany........


BTW, Tukhachevsky was rehabilitated -- dead, of course-- in the 1960s. Its absolutely clear that Stalin had the Soviet Union's best military leader of the time killed, "just because" and that this murder and the purges of others had a profoundly negative effect on Soviet military capability.

Here is a translation of the text written about the "Grandes Purges".

On the other hand, in addition to the political aspect, the purges also helped to rejuvenate the army and replace many lower and middle-level cadres with new cadres who had generally completed secondary or higher education. The Russian writer Alexander Zinoviev, who fought in the Red Army, asserts that although the arrest of high-ranking military leaders certainly had tragic consequences at the beginning of the war, this rejuvenation and the rise of cultural and intellectual level was a decisive factor in the victory:

"[...] There is in all evil a part of good. Thanks to these repressions and defeats of the beginning of the war, the level of education of the officers has increased. Yes Yes ! Large numbers of men with secondary and higher education took command of platoons, companies, battalions and regiments. [...] If you want to know, it's the bachelors of my school who won this war. "

Alexandre Zinoviev, Le Héros de notre jeunesse, Julliard/L'Âge d'Homme, p. 194.

I don't exactly understand why do you truncate the last part of my comment... That seems to me a little bit strange.

Originally Posted by Brian249x

Historians believe that for some weird reason that Stalin decided Hitler could be trusted and was genuinely paralyzed with shock when the invasion started. The slow response and the lack of coordination and preparation among the Soviet defense forces would have been disastrous but for the huge size of the Soviet Union, the toughness and resilience of the Russian soldiers, and Hitler's failure to appreciate the effectiveness of "General Winter."

During the documentary that I watched about Stalin, they said that he perfectly knew that his Army was not ready to fight the Nazis. He needed at least one or two years to get enough tanks and other weapons.
That's why he was glad to sign a treaty with Adolf Hitler.

In that documentary they also said that Stalin was incredibly surprised by the attack of Hitler.

[deepsepia]

Originally Posted by xyzde69

I don't exactly understand why do you truncate the last part of my comments... That seems to me a little bit strange.

You appear to be trying to find some justification for a mass murderer. Marshal Zhukov himself tells you that Stalin's crimes were inexcusable, that he "annihilated" thousands (actually millions) of innocent people and destroyed the fighting capability of the Red Army.

For some reason, Marshal Zhukov, Hero of the Soviet Union -- no less than four times!-- his assessment isn't good enough for you.

Yes, you are

There's really nothing more to say.

Buy a ticket to North Korea-- last true Stalinist nation on Earth.

Maybe you'll enjoy it, maybe you'll find it less agreeable.

But you've got that choice-- so go on, the dream of Stalin is still alive, in Pyongyang.

[Roubignol]

Originally Posted by deepsepia

You appear to be trying to find some justification for a mass murderer.

I do not try anything.
All this topic was to look if it would be possible to create a better political system. Because it clearly seems that Neoliberalism sucks and clearly sucks. And Capitalism could destroy our species. (overconsumption, waste, destruction of the environment, unjust wars in the Third World ... to increase shareholders' profits)

They all were brutal at that time. Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin... but the Tsars and the White Russians weren't angels too. It seems that you forget to mention this too.

Originally Posted by deepsepia

Marshal Zhukov himself tells you that Stalin's crimes were inexcusable, that he "annihilated" thousands (actually millions) of innocent people and destroyed the fighting capability of the Red Army.

For some reason, Marshal Zhukov, Hero of the Soviet Union -- no less than four times!-- his assessment isn't good enough for you.

Yes, you are

There's really nothing more to say.

Buy a ticket to North Korea-- last true Stalinist nation on Earth.

Maybe you'll enjoy it, maybe you'll find it less agreeable.

But you've got that choice-- so go on, the dream of Stalin is still alive, in Pyongyang.

You are the only one who detected unfairness in this Constitution.
I'm sorry but as I already mentionned, I read this Constitution after hearing a French professor often interviewed about problems on French Constitution.
He said that this 1936 Constitution was great. I read it, found it great too and shared it here.

You didn't like it. That's your right.
When I asked you what were the problems. I carefully read your comments.

But it seems now that you are you a supporter of the exploitation of the man by the man. Is it the fact?

[Arturo2nd]

Originally Posted by deepsepia

For some reason, Marshal Zhukov, Hero of the Soviet Union -- no less than four times!-- his assessment isn't good enough for you.

Georgy Zhukov started his military career as a conscript enlisted man in the czar's cavalry. He joined the Red Army during the revolution and eventually rose to being a Field Marshall overseeing all the soldiers. Zhukov's formal education ended in elementary school, but he worked relentlessly to educate himself in his off hours. He was personally acquainted with the educated former czarist officers who had gone over to the Bolsheviks during the army revolt in World War I and fought for the Red Army during the civil war. Zhukov admired these officers greatly and was enormously proud of what they had accomplished in building the Red Army.

He was Stalin's favorite general, but Stalin made sure that other generals led the forces into Berlin and accepted Germany's surrender. He was not going to risk Zhukov becoming a great enough hero that he might threaten Stalin's grip on power. The typical Russian peasant soldier would have recognized immediately that Field Marshall Zhukov was one of their own.

[Mal Hombre]

"Capitalism is the exploitation of man by man,Communism is the opposite"

[crinolynne]

Originally Posted by deepsepia

....

"Stalin was a personality selected for Revolutionary conspiracy-- who then, in power, assumed that everyone else was thinking the way he did."
....

It was one of the great lightbulb moments of my life when I realised this about 20 years ago. To whit, I had all along been assuming everyone else was operating under the same principles/thought processes and what have you as myself. I realised at the same time that the disconnect I was experiencing was a result of not just this, but the fact that other people were operating under the assumption that I thought, was motivated etc by the same things that they were. This is perhaps the most important lesson anyone can learn growing up.

[Arturo2nd]

Originally Posted by xyzde69

They all were brutal at that time. Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin... but the Tsars and the White Russians weren't angels too. It seems that you forget to mention this too.

One of the big problems of the Russian revolution was that Nicholas II followed the policy of his father Alexander III of concentrating all political power in the Tsar. Self government and bureaucratic accountability had been bred out of the Russian Empire. The Cheka, GPU, etc. were only continuations of the tsars' internal security apparatus.

We may really have a distorted view of the concentration of power and the actual reach of Communist control in Russia. I am reminded of reading where Mao Zedong admitted near the end of his life that despite his long efforts and the decades of upheaval and chaos, he had not been able to alter the fundamental character of Chinese society. This is not really surprising. Chinese and Russian society have evolved over the course of centuries (actually millennia in China's case.) The culture is more likely to overpower the ideology than vice versa. Local cadres often frustrate the central governments' policies and reform efforts.

The Communists succeeded in educating the formerly illiterate masses of Russia and are in the process of doing the same in China. We are a long way from knowing where those countries as well as India and the United States will wind up.

[deepsepia]

Originally Posted by crinolynne

It was one of the great lightbulb moments of my life when I realised this about 20 years ago. To whit, I had all along been assuming everyone else was operating under the same principles/thought processes and what have you as myself. I realised at the same time that the disconnect I was experiencing was a result of not just this, but the fact that other people were operating under the assumption that I thought, was motivated etc by the same things that they were. This is perhaps the most important lesson anyone can learn growing up.

I had this same epiphany too-- though it applied to women, not conspiracy.

"Oh I get it, she wants a house".

We're all inclined to overgeneralize our models of thinking - what else do we have?

Stalin was a self-styled hard man, look at the names he chose for himself "Koba" (the wolf, was the name of a Georgian bandit hero of his youth) and "Stalin" = "man of steel".

And he was a masterful conspirator. He was a man who sat quietly and plotted others' liquidation.

I assume that he watched other people, and assumed they were plotting similar mayhem. One thing that's notable about him: he _never_ seems to have regarded anyone as "harmless"; he always wanted proofs of obedience, to have men live in terror.

And give him this: he died in his bed, still in command -- though perhaps poisoned.

Not many tyrants die on the throne.

So he was plenty good at what he did, which was good for him but a disaster for his nation.

You can imagine a "path not taken", a Soviet Union where Bukharin prevails, and Stalin falls. This might have been something much closer to a social democracy.