The Cold War Thread

[rupertramjet]

Exercise Crusader 80

Exercise Crusader80 was at the time the largest exercise ever held in NATO it took two years to plan and lasted a month, with a series of minor exercises (Spearpoint, Jog Trot and Reforger) involving UK, US, Belgian, Dutch and German forces.

It was designed to test the UK forces capability to mobilise and reinforce BAOR over a compressed period. The main part of the exercise was the deployment of 20,000 Territorial Army and 10,000 regular troops.

The aim was to have each unit in position on the Continent within 48 hours. Units moved across the Channel both by air and sea, using a mixture of military and civilian resources. Ex Jog Trot opened the Continental Line of Communication, enabling units to collect equipment from the Low Countries storage sites prior to deployment to the 1st British Corps area of Germany.

This was the biggest movement of NATO troops since the war, and included a long range mass drop by the Americans, which was the largest drop since market Garden, sadly it was not quite a successful as we might have hoped, it was slightly off course!

[rupertramjet]

Harold touched briefly on the legend that was Peter Vigor. Hugely respected and admired by his students and most peers alike, he was witty and one of that chosen breed, who taught in a way, that is instinctive, from the heart and demonstrates a huge knowledge, fascination and even love for his subject.
Edited from WWII website (is it the same historian?)

"Peter Vigor, who has died aged 95, established a research centre at Sandhurst whose work played a notable part in government policymaking in its dealings with the Soviet Union.
It was 1973 when Vigor, a civilian instructor at Sandhurst, set up the Soviet Studies Research Centre (SSRC). Close study of overlooked Soviet military training manuals and political publications played their part in analysing and explaining Soviet military thinking more effectively than had previously been possible.
SSRC then expanded its remit to encompass the teaching of Soviet tactics, strategy and policy throughout the Army. It challenged much of the existing orthodoxy about the Soviet Army and communist system, which made SSRC enemies as well as friends within Whitehall.

However, its value was recognised and appreciated by a series of senior generals, notably General Sir Nigel Bagnall, who protected the organisation and relied on its work to support his own movement to reform British Army thinking and restore its offensive operational stance. With his support, SSRC made its material available throughout Nato and supported the formation of a US counterpart, the Soviet Military Studies Office at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas.

Peter Hast Vigor, the son of a timber importer, was born in London on July 25 1917. He went to Charterhouse on a scholarship and, in April 1940, took part in the Norway campaign with 15th Infantry Brigade.

On his return to England he was commissioned into the Royal Corps of Signals and posted to North Africa, where he joined the 7th Armoured Division. In November 1941, during the Gazala battles, the vehicle in which he was travelling was hit by shellfire and he suffered a back injury which resulted in his evacuation to the British Military Hospital, Alexandria. It was there, during his recuperation, that he fell under the spell of Elizabeth David, the cookery writer, and became one of the circle of young officers with which she surrounded herself.

He spent the rest of the war with the Polish forces, first in Iran, where he helped with their military retraining and, after they had moved to Palestine and then to Egypt, serving as a signals instructor. By the end of the war he was fluent in Polish and Russian and, as an acting lieutenant-colonel, helped to set up the British Military Mission to the Soviets in Berlin."

Notably, when Margaret Thatcher decided to engage with the USSR after the Soviet shooting down in 1983 of Korean Airlines Flight 007, Vigor’s analysis played a part in helping her shape her understanding of the Soviet system and its flaws.

[palo5]

Originally Posted by Ennath

No, the secret police hauled off to dungeons before killing them.

Well, they certainly did that in 1939/40, that's well documented. After the war the situation was different, because there were several insurgent groups to deal with. The insurgents targeted the Government and anything Soviet, and they killed a lot of people, so of course force was used against them, and many people were arrested. As far as I know, there were around 6.000 death sentences, but not all were carried out

If there were summary executions post-war, my guess would be that these took place during Stalin's era. But by 1956 Stalin had been dead three years, and nearly all insurgent activity had stopped. The situation had changed

There were still restrictions - for example, it was unwise to talk loosely, and you had to be careful about the company you kept, but life was livable. And no matter what anyone thinks about Communism, there is a lot to be said for zero unemployment, zero homelessness, universal healthcare etc etc. Some of its achievements have never been matched in The West

[haroldeye]

And no matter what anyone thinks about Communism, there is a lot to be said for zero unemployment, zero homelessness, universal healthcare etc etc. Some of its achievements have never been matched in The West

Thank heaven for that old son!

[richardoe]

Yes I had one of those SOXMIS cards. We had one of there vehicles snooping around a Harrier deployment, OC 2 Sqn rocks sent a Scorpion after it, with orders to ram!!! He got an interview without coffee.

The Berlin control zone that was in operation during the cold war was unique in aviation. It had a radius of 20 statute miles not nautical miles. Apparently Montgomery said it would have a radius of 20 miles, asked if that was statute or nautical he replied statute of course.

[palo5]

Originally Posted by haroldeye

Palo I made a (uniformed ) visit to Berlin, way back. We were given a tour of East Berlin by an SNCO from the int cell in Berlin

Did he make it interesting for you? Did you see Lichtenberg or Karlshorst?

After ten minutes he pointed out to us Major X who was our KGB trail for the day

I find that interesting. Why did he think the guy was KGB and not Stasi? And how did he know his rank? Or was he trying to be smart with you?

[richardoe]

If you were military could he in fact have been GRU?

[palo5]

Originally Posted by richardoe

If you were military could he in fact have been GRU?

I bet 10.000:1 he wasn't, unless you were scientists

The GRU wasn't interested in "tourists" in E. Berlin. That work was for locals. They wanted technical information

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by haroldeye

What was it someone said about 1947, 'On an island built of coal in a sea full of fish only a Labour Government could engineer a famine of fish and coal at the same time.'

It was a disingenuous criticism. The Tories in the period 1945-51 spotted rationing as a deeply unpopular policy and used it to help them get back into power. Their criticism did not acknowledge the very valid reasons why rationing was maintained; it is quite silly to suppose that the Tories either would or could have abolished it in the period 1945-51, when Britain was in a bad way economically and exporting her fish production to earn hard currency and pay for things she needed and couldn't afford, and was cutting in about 20 million Germans onto her supply chain as well, to prevent actual starvation. At one stage, German rations were down to about 1,200 calories a day, which is not enough to keep people alive permanently; but the crisis was managed and mass starvation was prevented. At the time, the British were not best pleased that they were on short commons because they were feeding the former enemy; but I would be bitterly ashamed of my country if we had not done this, it was not an option to deliberately let people die because we didn't like them very much. It was good politics to allege that the rationing was so severe due to incompetence and mismanagement by Labour, but the truth is that the Attlee government of 1945-51, though flawed and sometimes breathtakingly naive, was a great government which introduced huge social improvement to the UK; I think it remains the best peacetime government this country has ever had.

[richardoe]

After wwii there were three air corridors in to west Berlin from West Germany. The responsibility for those corridors was given to the Berlin Air Safety Centre(BASC). This was manned by the four powers and was located in the building used for the trials of the 20th July conspirators, and they were executed in the basement. Flights along the corridors could only be made by aircraft registered and operated by the four powers. Flight plans were handed to the Russian officer on duty in BASC and he would stamp them "safety of flight not guaranteed". One RAF officer apparently handed one two him and the Russian stamped it. The RAF officer apparently said "but my mothers on that flight!", the Russian apparently said "in that case I guarantee that aircraft will be safe!".

In 1980 the Australian government donated a Dakota to a museum in Berlin, this Dakota had been flown by RAAF crews in the airlift. Because Australian aircraft couldn't fly in the corridors it was flown to RAF Gutersloh and painted in temporary RAF markings for its flight.