bring back hanging yes or no?

[Warren G]

It's really a rare day when I agree with chupachups, but I have to say I have a problem with this. I'm generally a quite liberal kind of guy, and I can understand the barbarism of execution. The taking of another life is a very serious thing, be it by an individual or a government. This is horrific to me on a human level.

However, as a member of society, I also recognize the need for an order of things. Some crimes are just beyond humanistic compassion. Let's face it...when we know beyond the reason of a doubt that someone committed a terrible crime, such as the cold blooded killing of a child, or pregnant mother, genocide, cannibals, sexual torture and murder, or some such other radically deviant behavior, that person is hopelessly lost, and needs to be dealt with severely.

Such a person would otherwise just live out the rest of his life in prison, with food, shelter, tv and whatever at a great expense to the taxpayers, not to mention the anguish of the victim's families. That is not justice. That is an offence and a slap in the face to the survivors and society at large.

This is a fact of life that is unsavory to most people, something that we don't want to deal with. But it must be dealt with. The character of our ethics are in the balance. If you have unruly children, you discipline them, or you father a generation of unruly adults. If you have a cancer, you don't make it comfortable, you cut it out, or you slowly die. The same goes for the occasional monsters that our society produces. By not dealing with the problem, we exacerbate the problem.

[Mal Hombre]

Again,We come up against the question of doubt,We can never be sure enough of guilt to avoid the tragic death of innocent people.

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by Warren G

However, as a member of society, I also recognize the need for an order of things. Some crimes are just beyond humanistic compassion. Let's face it...when we know beyond the reason of a doubt that someone committed a terrible crime, such as the cold blooded killing of a child, or pregnant mother, genocide, cannibals, sexual torture and murder, or some such other radically deviant behavior, that person is hopelessly lost, and needs to be dealt with severely.

Such a person would otherwise just live out the rest of his life in prison, with food, shelter, tv and whatever at a great expense to the taxpayers, not to mention the anguish of the victim's families. That is not justice. That is an offence and a slap in the face to the survivors and society at large.

I am far from satisfied with the existing arrangements in the UK, in which most murderers are released on licence far too soon. It neither satisfies the legitimate need for retribution (not revenge) nor does it show any sense that the state, via the courts and the prison system and the parole boards has any proper sense of its' moral duty to protect society from having some really unsocialised and dangerous people back in circulation.

However, it does make me smile when I read about what a soft option prison is, all that free room and board, TV, PS3, blah de blah. Prison is not a nice place to be. The mere loss of personal liberty, the fact of enslavement, is a severe penalty to anyone who is not absolutely bovine to begin with. It may be bearable if you are an old lag and not a first-timer, but I doubt if there are many people in a prison serving time who would rather be there than be free men outside, not serving time. In the UK, prison suicides are a great concern; the prisoner suicide rate is over four times the national average and some prisons, such as the Feltham Young Offenders Institute and Armley Gaol in Leeds are especially bad for this. It isn't Centreparcs.

I firmly believe that if we deployed the right spirit of thought, we could make prison both better and worse. Better in being serious about rehabilitation, about treating mental disorders and about trying to make the majority who will one day be coming out again fit to rejoin society. Worse in being much longer and harder to endure if you belong to the small minority whose crime was so bad that it was necessary to throw the key away. This living death would be a much more terrible punishment than execution; I firmly believe that. It also leaves the door open to make at least partial restitution if the felon should turn out to be innocent, as has happened all too often before.

I am very against capital punishment, but I am never sorry to hear that really nasty people such as the Nazi war criminals ended up dead in such a way. My opposition to the death penalty is more pragmatic than ethical. Quite simply put, Britain, Texas and lots of other supposedly advanced societies are really gifted when it comes to finding spurious reasons to execute innocent people.

[Warren G]

Well, a lifetime in prison can cost 100's of thousands, but a bullet just costs a quarter.

Only kiddin'.

(Or is he)?

[billybunter]

Originally Posted by Warren G

Well, a lifetime in prison can cost 100's of thousands, but a bullet just costs a quarter.

Only kiddin'.

(Or is he)?

People are often on death row for years. And from what i've read it is expensive. all the appeals and general legal wrangling.
It is true that prisoners this side of the pond do get it easy compared to the USA. But the EU has a hand it that. I don't see why a convict should have a TV or play station/DVD player. Do they pay for a TV licence?

[chupachups]

I wonder why so many on this thread can sympathise with serial killers and child murderers rather than their victims ?

people talk about the "many" of cases of miscarriages of justice as if this were the reality or that it could affect anyone that had previously been of good character

people talk about whether an innocent man can be executed...to address this how about a new classification of murder - "premediated murder, guilty beyond all reasonable doubt"....video or audio footage...DNA evidence....caught in the act

in this case bundy and brady would die, bellfield would serve life in prison

but consider this of bellfield...15 years and paroled...he will still be a nutter and will be about 55 when released, still an extreme danger to women...how many innocent people will die because the state cannot hold him or those like him, as they have served their sentence...far more than the miscarriages of justice considering my suggestion for "beyond reasonable doubt"

[palo5]

Originally Posted by deepsepia

I'd refer you to the FBI, who collect uniform crime statistics from around the nation. They don't have newspapers to selll

That's right, they have a reputation to sell, not newspapers. But they'd be happy if the newspapers helped

[billybunter]

Originally Posted by chupachups

I wonder why so many on this thread can sympathise with serial killers and child murderers rather than their victims ?

people talk about the "many" of cases of miscarriages of justice as if this were the reality or that it could affect anyone that had previously been of good character

people talk about whether an innocent man can be executed...to address this how about a new classification of murder - "premediated murder, guilty beyond all reasonable doubt"....video or audio footage...DNA evidence....caught in the act

in this case bundy and brady would die, bellfield would serve life in prison

but consider this of bellfield...15 years and paroled...he will still be a nutter and will be about 55 when released, still an extreme danger to women...how many innocent people will die because the state cannot hold him or those like him, as they have served their sentence...far more than the miscarriages of justice considering my suggestion for "beyond reasonable doubt"

I believe a country should not stoop to murder. Let them rot in jail. A civilised society does not murder people.

[Mal Hombre]

Originally Posted by chupachups

I wonder why so many on this thread can sympathise with serial killers and child murderers rather than their victims ?


but consider this of bellfield...15 years and paroled...he will still be a nutter and will be about 55 when released, still an extreme danger to women...how many innocent people will die because the state cannot hold him or those like him, as they have served their sentence...far more than the miscarriages of justice considering my suggestion for "beyond reasonable doubt"

Consider this, No one on this thread has expressed any sympathy with serial killers ,Far from it.Concerning Bellfield,He was already serving a Whole Life tariff before He was convicted of Milly Dowler's murder now He's serving two .He will never see daylight again.

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by chupachups

I wonder why so many on this thread can sympathise with serial killers and child murderers rather than their victims ?

No one on this thread has expressed sympathy with serial killers and child murderers.

Originally Posted by chupachups

people talk about the "many" of cases of miscarriages of justice as if this were the reality or that it could affect anyone that had previously been of good character

It is the reality and it can and does affect people of good character. Many is also accurate. Is there an acceptable de maximus limit if innocent people whom the state is allowed to wrongly convict, sometimes deliberately and maliciously frame? Is there a Performance Materiality or Acceptable Error Rate here, chapachups?

Originally Posted by chupachups

people talk about whether an innocent man can be executed...to address this how about a new classification of murder - "premediated murder, guilty beyond all reasonable doubt"....video or audio footage...DNA evidence....caught in the act

in this case bundy and brady would die, bellfield would serve life in prison

but consider this of bellfield...15 years and paroled...he will still be a nutter and will be about 55 when released, still an extreme danger to women...how many innocent people will die because the state cannot hold him or those like him, as they have served their sentence...far more than the miscarriages of justice considering my suggestion for "beyond reasonable doubt"

IMHO all people on trial are entitled to a reasonable doubt; however "beyond reasonable doubt" is not the same thing as certainty. If properly applied, the odds against innocence should be very long, but it's a cinch that a percentage of innocent people are convicted "beyond all reasonable doubt."

I don't believe the degree of certainty of which you speak will often be possible; it will sometimes be possible. Even when it seems to have been achieved, expect that some of the convicted will still be innocent; usually seeming to be quite damed by the evidence because the evidence has been faked by the police. The police are a leading cause of miscarraiges of justice because they are goal-oriented and the establishment of a suspect's innocence is not regarded as an achievement, but rather as a failure. The police are under pressure to achieve, to succeed, to show results. Unfortunately some of them are not ethical and not honest, and will achieve "results" at the expense of justice.

I do agree that Levi Bellfield ever being released will be a travesty. He should rot. Ian Brady is rotting and I think his punishment is exactly right. Anyone who thinks he has it soft should offer to share the same hotel. I would have incarcerated Ted Bundy also, for the rest of forever. This very day he would inside a prison cell, staring at four wall, seeing the sky for one hour a day, and reflecting that no matter how long he lives he will never experience ever again anything but this.