Holocaust:True Or False ?

[haroldeye]

There is usually in society a group of people who feel the need to hate. Be they Nationalists like the BNP or people of the hard left or hard right. In decent and well ordered societies these groups are frowned upon and challenged by all right minded people. When decency and order breakdown these people get the chance to spout their bile and rabble rouse. When they actually get control like Hitler or Stalin did then things can take a turn for the worse for everyone.

[Nobody1]

Originally Posted by Norbert84

It's a good question that should be answered in a wider context. Even in the 19th century, anti-Semitism was a geographically limited phenomenon. It occurred (or outlived) in societies still stuck with strong feudal remnants. Those societies or states were Prussia, Austria and the Russian Empire. They still didn't make the transition into the modern capitalist system. Now the capitalist mode of production was already present in these countries but yet overwhelmingly confined to its financial component. A bourgeois class like in England or France was still too undeveloped and weak to gain control over national economy. With Jews playing a significant part in modern finance, the "bad capitalist" was identified with them by the reactionary and backwards medieval guilds and lesser nobility. They attacked Jewish bankers and merchants for "keeping up with the times" which they felt was a threat to their own economic position. It was the economic and thus political backwardness in Austria, Germany and Russia that fueled anti-Semitism among the petty bourgeois classes. Russia was probably the worst example where a number of anti-Semitic pogromes already happened which is rather weird because most Jews in Eastern Europe lived in terrible poverty.

The German national movement went quite a different path, according to the specific circumstances of course. Germans were defined as an ethnic group (Volk) as opposed to the modern nation of citizens like in France or the US. Anti-Semitism began to play a major role among German nationalists, especially in Austria. Before that, hatred and prejudices against Jews had a religious character but now we had this new racist anti-Semitism. One of its chied ideologues in Austria was Georg von Schönerer, a fervent anti-Semite. And in fact, Hitler cited him as one of his main influences, the other being Viennese mayor Karl Lueger. I'd say it was a combination of Hitler's experiences during WWI (resulting in defeat and humiliation) and his own social frustrations that led him to his extreme racist beliefs. His "philosophical" influences helped him to articulate his hatred.

That was a clean analysis Norbert, compliment. However, I must add that the roots of German anti-Semitism actually date back to the days of the Reformation. Martin Luther and other reformers took a decidedly anti-Jewish attitude during this revolutionary era. As a consequence, anti-Semitism became an integral part of the evolving Protestant Ethic. The Protestant Ethic in turn determines the true nature of capitalism to this day.

In this sense, a certain quote of Bert Brecht is to understand.

'The womb he crawled from is still going strong.' (from 'The Resistible Rise of Arturo Ui' by Bertolt Brecht, 1941)

[billybunter]

I'm a moon landing doubter. I get angry to be associated with the holocaust.

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by billybunter

I'm a moon landing doubter. I get angry to be associated with the holocaust.

Which was part of my point before, Billy; I have been known to pull your leg over the moon landings and other conspiracies, but I certainly wouldn't acknowledge you if you were a holocaust denier. These are not the same things at all. TBH, I really do not believe most holocaust deniers actually think the holocaust didn't happen. I think most of them are consciously and deliberately lying when they say it didn't happen. The physical evidence of the holocaust is overwhelming.

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by Nobody1

That was a clean analysis Norbert, compliment. However, I must add that the roots of German anti-Semitism actually date back to the days of the Reformation. Martin Luther and other reformers took a decidedly anti-Jewish attitude during this revolutionary era. As a consequence, anti-Semitism became an integral part of the evolving Protestant Ethic. The Protestant Ethic in turn determines the true nature of capitalism to this day.

In this sense, a certain quote of Bert Brecht is to understand.

'The womb he crawled from is still going strong.' (from 'The Resistible Rise of Arturo Ui' by Bertolt Brecht, 1941)

Yet the Lutherans were a "suspect" element in Nazi society. For example, Finland has a strong Lutheran tradition and was completely not on board, refusing to deport its Jewish community and harbouring quite a few Jews from elsewhere. Her record wasn't squeaky clean, but it was better by far than any other German aligned country in WW2. When Himmler visited Finland in August 1942 hoping to obtain cooperation on the deporting of Finland's Jewish community, he was politely turned down.

We do not have a "Jewish Question" in Finland.
~ Prime Minister Rangell.

For as long as the Jews of Finland fight in the armies of Finland, I will never deport them.
~ Field Marshal Mannerheim.

Sophie Scholl was a Lutheran, and her humanitarian views did not exist in a vacuum. She and her two friends who died on the same scaffold chose to say and write what many other thought and did not dare to say or write, and the Nazi judge, Friesler, had them executed in order to make sure others would not dare to follow in their steps. Her last words were:

How can we expect righteousness to prevail when there is hardly anyone willing to give himself up individually to a righteous cause. Such a fine, sunny day, and I have to go, but what does my death matter, if through us, thousands of people are awakened and stirred to action?

[billybunter]

It was srksmeghead comment I found a bit below the belt.

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by billybunter

It was srksmeghead comment I found a bit below the belt.

Im sure it wasn't intended as a personal dig at anyone, Billy, you or anyone else. Sometimes we express ourselves in generalisations without reflecting that specific people might take offence. I'm sure this has happened to you as well (it has to me).

[Puhbear69]

Originally Posted by Norbert84

It's a good question that should be answered in a wider context. Even in the 19th century, anti-Semitism was a geographically limited phenomenon. It occurred (or outlived) in societies still stuck with strong feudal remnants. Those societies or states were Prussia, Austria and the Russian Empire. They still didn't make the transition into the modern capitalist system. Now the capitalist mode of production was already present in these countries but yet overwhelmingly confined to its financial component. A bourgeois class like in England or France was still too undeveloped and weak to gain control over national economy. With Jews playing a significant part in modern finance, the "bad capitalist" was identified with them by the reactionary and backwards medieval guilds and lesser nobility. They attacked Jewish bankers and merchants for "keeping up with the times" which they felt was a threat to their own economic position. It was the economic and thus political backwardness in Austria, Germany and Russia that fueled anti-Semitism among the petty bourgeois classes. Russia was probably the worst example where a number of anti-Semitic pogromes already happened which is rather weird because most Jews in Eastern Europe lived in terrible poverty.

The German national movement went quite a different path, according to the specific circumstances of course. Germans were defined as an ethnic group (Volk) as opposed to the modern nation of citizens like in France or the US. Anti-Semitism began to play a major role among German nationalists, especially in Austria. Before that, hatred and prejudices against Jews had a religious character but now we had this new racist anti-Semitism. One of its chied ideologues in Austria was Georg von Schönerer, a fervent anti-Semite. And in fact, Hitler cited him as one of his main influences, the other being Viennese mayor Karl Lueger. I'd say it was a combination of Hitler's experiences during WWI (resulting in defeat and humiliation) and his own social frustrations that led him to his extreme racist beliefs. His "philosophical" influences helped him to articulate his hatred.

This post is a good argument, IMHO.

I have heard of the pamphflets of Georg von Schönerer, and he was a historically proven anti-Semite. The time table fits too in Vienna, because Hitler had been a young man (about ~20) at this time.
But at his first political speeches after WWI in Munich this anti-Semitism was not on topic, this came later.

I've never heard of Karl Lueger, but I will catch upon this later.
EDIT: As the mayor of Vienna I do know him at this time, but I wasn't aware of his name.
It is said, he was a good speaker and very popular as a mayor; I think we can take this as an evidence of his influence on Hitler here.

I think you aren't correct with the list of countries, remember the Dreyfus affair for example.
Of other countries (England & Ireland or Italy) I'm having no info in this special point. But I think Spain we could add to the list, but I'm not sure at 100%.

A strong argument in 19th century are the 'bad capitalists' picture, what is occurring repeatedly in the Nazi - Ideology later too. That's owed in the luck missing rules in legislation in general and missing rules in the social legislation in special at this time. Leading into the Black Thursday 1927, hyperinflation from 1919 to 1923.
Not to mention, that it applicable to the majority of non-Jews capitalists too. Why this has been laid on the doorstep of the Jews mainly, I can't understand logically. It must have been quite visible for ordinary people, that - based on missing rules - it was hitting the ordinary Jews in the same way.

(BTW: We are having the same kind of problems to since 2007, there are a lot of missing rules of the legislation at the Banking sector too, and nothing to a very little is solved so far.)

I agree with you, in mid age and later the the anti-Semitism had a religious and prejudice character ("they are different from us Christians" or "they killed/betray Jesus") which could locally inflame too, and later it got into a racism.

.

Originally Posted by haroldeye

There is usually in society a group of people who feel the need to hate. Be they Nationalists like the BNP or people of the hard left or hard right. In decent and well ordered societies these groups are frowned upon and challenged by all right minded people. When decency and order breakdown these people get the chance to spout their bile and rabble rouse. When they actually get control like Hitler or Stalin did then things can take a turn for the worse for everyone.

That's correct, I think !

We can watch this effect between the -so called fans of- different football clubs on a lower level, for example. (Saying this as a person, having absolutely no clue (and interests) in football). It's absolutely strange to me, if I'm watching those issues at reports. :head-shaking: They don't know each other, but beaten up themselves, because they are "different".

Do we have a kind of the same effect here ?

[Nobody1]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

Sophie Scholl was a Lutheran, and her humanitarian views did not exist in a vacuum.

One has to say here that Sophie Scholl and her brother first actively participated in various Nazi youth organizations. She and her brother were initially staunch Nazis. The decisive factor for them was the communitarian ideal.

The turn in Sophie and Hans Scholl's life happened in spring 1941. The reason for the ideological reorientation of the siblings were the works of St. Augustine of Hippo, a latin church father of the ancient world and an important philosopher of the epochal threshold between antiquity and the middle ages.

[Attila The Hun]

Originally Posted by haroldeye

There is usually in society a group of people who feel the need to hate. Be they Nationalists like the BNP or people of the hard left or hard right. In decent and well ordered societies these groups are frowned upon and challenged by all right minded people. When decency and order breakdown these people get the chance to spout their bile and rabble rouse. When they actually get control like Hitler or Stalin did then things can take a turn for the worse for everyone.

The thing is that every part of the political spectrum is filled with people who hate and commit attrocities, including conservatives (Marcos) and liberals (the Young Turks), not just the hard right and the hard left. True, that the hard right is all about hate and intolerance, but the far-left is not. Gandhi, Martin Luther King Jr. and Nelson Mandela were ''hard left'' as they were socialists and it is hard to claim that they felt the need to hate.

Infact, the main atrocities committed by the left were not usually due to hate but a warped idea of attaining equality and a fairer society no matter the cost along the way. And you had opportunists and reactionaries who didn't believe in the ideals in the first place.

Originally Posted by Puhbear69

What makes me wonder all the time since I'm thinking in a politically way: where does that hatred came from, Hitler felt against the Jews. Jews made at this time at ~1% of the German population.

The Jews had been rather more as less been integrated in the "German Empire" or later in the "Weimar Republik".

Hitler and his cronies were anti-Semites because Germany sadly had a history of anti-Semitism (not to blame all Germans), they were a clear and visible cultural-religious community and the NAZIs view Judaism and communism as linked due to Karl Marx (whose family had actually converted to Christianity but the NAZIs viewed Jews as a race) and other prominent leftists in Germany. The NAZI party pretty much came from the Nationalist ''freikorps'', whom the Weimar actually used to crush worker's revolts such as the Januaraufstand. The Freikorps were fiercely anti-Slavic and hated minorities. Himmler and many other prominent members of the NAZI party were members of Freikorps, however, Hitler (never a Freikorps member) came to view Freikorps as a threat and many Freikorps members were killed in 'The Night of The Long Knives'.

Other anti-Semitic and racist groups (the NAZIs were against others about as much, such as Slavs and Romani) that fed into the NAZI party were the occult groups such as Ariosphy and and the Völkisch nationalism of Johann Gottlieb Fichte, who spoke of purifying Germany. Völkisch Nationalists viewed Romani, Jews etc as too universal, which they hated. Fichte himself declared the Jews a state within a state and suggested the creation of a Jewish state in Palestine (popular with anti-Semites who didn't want to outright kill Jews... actually the idea was initially supported by NAZIs like Eichmann, who even made deals with Zionist groups) rather than having them in Germany.

All these different influences boiled over and created one of the most debased and vile forms of the disorder known as racism.