Holocaust:True Or False ?

[cginok]

Originally Posted by jokerman

Sorry Scounds, But I've got to disagree with you and Palo on this. Three miilion of the six million Jews who were murdered were Polish. The other three million came from all over Europe and it took the Nazi's in the case of all of the Poles nearly six years to murder them. How does that explain the Nazi's ability to murder twenty-five million Soviets in a far shorter time scale?

It wasn't 6 years. I was actually more like 3. Yes, there were ghettos/concentration camps around from the mid 30's, but those were not the death camps that we think of when the Holocaust is mentioned. Those weren't being built until late 41 to early 42. The Wannsee Conference wasn't held until January of 42, that's when the real extermination started.

As for the 25 million Russians, I'm not sure the Russians truly know what the number is. Some Russian sources claim as many as 40 million. Was the number 25 million? Less, more? We'll never really know. You also have to consider that the Russians are counting in that 25 million ALL war dead...not just those killed by Germany. Russia killed a good number of their own people, before and during the war.

[gordian_knot]

Originally Posted by winetippler

I can't believe we have this thread.

I once visited the Yad Vashem (Holocaust Musuem) in Jerusalem if convinced me it was true.

If Jerusalem is too far go to the British Holocaust Musuem in Nottinghamshire, if you still have doubts.

(Apologies moderators for the rant.)

That suggests that at one point you weren't convinced. Threads like this and talking about this subject is always good because it's another avenue for convincing doubters of the truth.

Debating the facts is always better than banning a belief or, worse, banning debate.

[winetippler]

I have deleted my previous contributions to this discussion.

I take issue with individuals whom have never met me, know me, but choose to make assumptions about me from a few lines of text.

For the record I have visited the Holocaust Musuem in Jerusalem and met and chatted to Holocaust survivors something which I wonder if those whom choose to pass comment on my beliefs have done.

Sorry VEFers and moderators, I'll probably get banned for posting this or have it removed, but I feel strongly about this and felt I had to publicly make a statement despite trying to resolve this in an amicable manner privately.

[MaxJoker]

Originally Posted by winetippler

I have deleted my previous contributions to this discussion.

I take issue with individuals whom have never met me, know me, but choose to make assumptions about me from a few lines of text.

For the record I have visited the Holocaust Musuem in Jerusalem and met and chatted to Holocaust survivors something which I wonder if those whom choose to pass comment on my beliefs have done.

Sorry VEFers and moderators, I'll probably get banned for posting this or have it removed, but I feel strongly about this and felt I had to publicly make a statement despite trying to resolve this in an amicable manner privately.

It`s a shame you ultimately decided to self delete your previous contributions on this thread as no rules had been dented let alone broken by them.

Also self deleting (Considering it was only a handful) wouldn't even warrant a finger wag. Let alone be a bannable offense.
Nor is your above post a bannable issue as you were polite enough. So worry not

Misunderstandings can easily occur in unreal real life let alone on threads

Great thing was no insults were exchanged by either party

Frontal lobes crossed an agreement to disagree line can be mutually respectfully drawn here now and the discussion continue on the specific topic

[ragapart]

it is worth considering that the nazis started by killing disabled people, started in the mid-late 30's, went on in 1940. There were protests about it, at least one bishop denounced it from the pulpit, and the nazis stopped gassing them, but simply switched to leaving them to starve to death. Some of the victims actually wrote to their families telling about this. they were killed with carbon monoxide, so it was an early experiment for the killing of the jews, gypsies, gay people, and all the others. there were around 50,000 disabled people killed this way.

[palo5]

Originally Posted by jokerman

Sorry Scounds, But I've got to disagree with you and Palo on this. Three miilion of the six million Jews who were murdered were Polish. The other three million came from all over Europe and it took the Nazi's in the case of all of the Poles nearly six years to murder them. How does that explain the Nazi's ability to murder twenty-five million Soviets in a far shorter time scale?

I haven't said anything yet, so how can you disagree with me?

But I'll say something now you can disagree with: when I grew up they told us WW2 cost USSR 20 million dead, but today historians' "best estimates" are 27 million. This includes 13 million military dead. It also includes Soviet Jews, but I don't know the number

What you may not know is that the Germans annihilated thousands of Soviet villages in a way they didn't do in Poland. But if you want to know how they did it, there is a 1985 movie called "Come and See" which will show you. Everyone who witnessed such destructions says this is exactly how the Germans operated, and it is absolutely not propaganda

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0091251/?ref_=nv_sr_1

If anyone wants this movie, I can send it to them. Or maybe I could post it here, if Section Mods allow. It's in Belarusian, Russian and German, with German sub-titles, but I don't think you need to handle any of the languages to understand what's going on -- you'll "get it" alright

[rotobott]

Just watched this

German Concentration Camps Factual Survey (2014)

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt6410016/?ref_=nv_sr_1

Filmed and scripted in 1945 mainly in Belsen, much of the script underestimates what actually happened, they truly couldn't imagine the scale of what had occurred. Watch this if you want to know what man is truly capable of.

[Puhbear69]

Originally Posted by cginok

It wasn't 6 years. I was actually more like 3. Yes, there were ghettos/concentration camps around from the mid 30's, but those were not the death camps that we think of when the Holocaust is mentioned. Those weren't being built until late 41 to early 42. The Wannsee Conference wasn't held until January of 42, that's when the real extermination started.

As for the 25 million Russians, I'm not sure the Russians truly know what the number is. Some Russian sources claim as many as 40 million. Was the number 25 million? Less, more? We'll never really know. You also have to consider that the Russians are counting in that 25 million ALL war dead...not just those killed by Germany. Russia killed a good number of their own people, before and during the war.

First people were (German) Communists and Sozial-Democrats in the Concentration Camps (disabling the opposition, to much people for the jails). Followed by mentally disabled people and than followed by Jews.

And the British secret service and the US secret service had no notice of that - what's going on in Nazi-Germany ? I can't believe this !
It may be not handled in the public, in the newspapers or so.

BTW: The Nazi's didn't do such things secretly !!!! They terrorised those people openly (a climate of fear).

[palo5]

Originally Posted by Puhbear69

And the British secret service and the US secret service had no notice of that - what's going on in Nazi-Germany ? I can't believe this !

They knew about persecution, and that many were being murdered, but I don't think they realized the scale of the crime until much later. They liberated some seriously evil camps in the west, but all the "real" extermination camps were in the east, and no western army ever got near them

Btw, I mentioned above that we believe today that USSR lost 27 million dead in WW2. I should also have mentioned that China lost a lot more -- something like 40 million, if the best estimates are good. So our burden was heavy, but theirs was even worse

[Puhbear69]

Originally Posted by palo5

They knew about persecution, and that many were being murdered, but I don't think they realized the scale of the crime until much later. They liberated some seriously evil camps in the west, but all the "real" extermination camps were in the east, and no western army ever got near them

[...]

In the West it was called at first "Arbeitslager" [Working-Camps]. They got terminated later in favourite to the camps which have been known later.

Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peat_Bog_Soldiers

Their song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55IBPlQCLjQ

Song-Text: http://www.songtexte.com/songtext/er...-7bcf8e84.html