The First World War

[palo5]

Originally Posted by rupertramjet

Nobody disputes the role played by the US

It's what you're all doing, actually. No one will admit the US was the winning hand. But they all say the Americans were late (as usual) and their own side did all the fighting

your dismissal of our efforts in both wars, goes a bit beyond the pail.

I'm relativizing, not dismissing. When I tell you that your worst ever day in warfare was for us a daily occurrence for 1,300 days without a break, that is not dismissing your sacrifice -- it's adding some perspective

It's the same as you adding your perspective when Americans say they "saved your asses" in both wars. But don't worry -- they say they saved our asses in WW2 as well. And we bristle just like you

[rupertramjet]

1,675,000 or 2.23% of our total population. Among men of military age, it was 32%.

Quite a loss for a small nation. I do not belittle the US involvement in the war, but there entry was late, had they come in 1915, millions would have been saved, and the war over far earlier.

I also respect the Russian, Soviet Union dead of WWII. 10 million military and 16.6 civilian. We do not forget and we respect the memories.

I too remember the 5.7 million German dead.

[palo5]

Originally Posted by rupertramjet

I too remember the 5.7 million German dead.

Me too. I'm related by marriage to Germans, and have learned to see different perspectives from people who also suffered direct. Also from WW1, believe it or not

I'm vintage 1945, and knew Germans who survived 1914-1918. My relatives, as they became

WW1 was a terrible betrayal of national loyalty, no matter who you were. I especially despise the diplomats & politicians of WW1 time

[Trintron]

Originally Posted by palo5

WW1 was a terrible betrayal of national loyalty, no matter who you were. I especially despise the diplomats & politicians of WW1 time

I agree, I think that it is a shame that Diplomacy not really given a chance to try and stop the war from happening before it began. In Germany's case, the Kaiser, the Foreign Minister, the lower level German Diplomats did very little to stop the Austro-Hungarians from declaring war on Serbia. From what I have read and learned, they knew that Russia was going to come to the defense of Serbia, by not trying to give diplomacy a chance. Germany gave Austria-Hungary a blank check to do what it wanted. As for the other nations involved, they did not give diplomacy a chance either, everyone their alliances with other nations and marched in lock step towards war, the real shame is that WW1 was a avoidable war.

It's a real tragedy...

[Arturo2nd]

We Americans tried to stay out of both wars, but y'all insisted we had to join in. Now look what a mess we have have with a military-industrial machine threatening everybody's freedom and security. Am I the only person who is scared to death over the current state of U.S. politics?

Growing up in 1950s and 60s America, I was exposed to all the crowing about how we won the war. It was only after I got older and studied history in college that I found out that the Soviet Union had beaten the Reich. Lord, what a price those people paid in blood under inept and vicious Communist leadership. The United States kicked the hell out of the Japanese Empire while treating it as a secondary theater. But, then again, the Japanese army was tied down in China. Once control of the seas was in American hands, Japan could not sustain the war. Really, the Germans and Japanese were silly to attack much larger and more populous nations.

The one great accomplishment of the Communists was to turn a backward and poorly educated agrarian country into a well educated industrial state within two generations. The price the people paid was hideous, but the accomplishment was real.

[savage560]

Originally Posted by Brian249x

The one great accomplishment of the Communists was to turn a backward and poorly educated agrarian country into a well educated industrial state within two generations. The price the people paid was hideous, but the accomplishment was real.

You'd had better re-think that statement in summary,if you are referring to Russia & the its successor state the USSR.In the very early 20th century Tsarist Russia ,before the war ,was predicted by many economic historians ,in the day, to be the new economic power house of the second half of the 20th century, if not even even a bit sooner.IOW, it was well on its way to modernize before the Bullshitviks.WWI, when the Russian Empire had the unenviable or better put almost impossible task of being the only nation or empire in the war to be facing 3 huge empires, on it borders, was doomed to failure, because of that, & a lack of coordinated battle attacks of its allies.The war was truly an empire killer, & the Reds were at one time earnestly challenged by a more traditional governing force.Who knows what would have happened if the Whites would've won the revolution?

http://www.theglobalist.com/1913-201...ntire-century/

[Arturo2nd]

Originally Posted by savage560

You'd had better re-think that statement in summary,if you are referring to Russia & the its successor state the USSR.In the very early 20th century Tsarist Russia ,before the war ,was predicted by many economic historians ,in the day, to be the new economic power house of the second half of the 20th century, if not even even a bit sooner.IOW, it was well on its way to modernize before the Bullshitviks.WWI, when the Russian Empire had the unenviable or better put almost impossible task of being the only nation or empire in the war to be facing 3 huge empires, on it borders, was doomed to failure, because of that, & a lack of coordinated battle attacks of its allies.The war was truly an empire killer, & the Reds were at one time earnestly challenged by a more traditional governing force.Who knows what would have happened if the Whites would've won the revolution?

http://www.theglobalist.com/1913-201...ntire-century/

Sorry, but I just can't buy that Russia was going to advance under tsarist rule. Nicholas II was weak and ineffectual, but firmly committed to retaining the tsar's autocratic power. When push came to shove, the tsars always preferred expanding and consolidating their power at the expense of social advancement.

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by Brian249x

Sorry, but I just can't buy that Russia was going to advance under tsarist rule. Nicholas II was weak and ineffectual, but firmly committed to retaining the tsar's autocratic power. When push came to shove, the tsars always preferred expanding and consolidating their power at the expense of social advancement.

I have always thought (not always literally, but since I was taught about the event in school history lessons) that the murder of Czar Alexander II was terrible and tragic wrong turn in Russian history. Alexander II abolished serfdom years sooner than the Americans abolished slavery, and he also introduced a successful system of local democratic self government called the Zemstovas. His reward was to be murdered by some non-entity Anarchist terrorist whose entire life was a theft of oxygen. The successors, Alexander III and Nicholas II were reactionaries anyway but could be forgiven IMHO if they thought about the murder of Alexander II whenever they were tempted to consider liberal reforms.

[otokonomidori]

Why don't we have a Chilcott report in to the reasons for going to war in 1914?

[savage560]

Originally Posted by Brian249x

Sorry, but I just can't buy that Russia was going to advance under tsarist rule. Nicholas II was weak and ineffectual, but firmly committed to retaining the tsar's autocratic power. When push came to shove, the tsars always preferred expanding and consolidating their power at the expense of social advancement.

Maybe not, but the Whites could have rendered him a figurehead , much like other monarchies in other nations were & are to this day.Or very limited power like in the UK?A constitutional monarchy under more moderates may have come about, but then again the unpopular war took its toll , & the communists announced they would cease hostilities by signing a very bad treaty with the Central Powers.Which was one major reason that the Bolsheviks won out.Even with foreign help to the Whites,like from the US this could not be achieved, so its all history now, but as in any vision there always is a "could have been" theory.

IOW ,it didn't have to go so communistically radical,in the opine of many, to be a successful nation & a world power, it was on its way to positive reforms before the revolution.