Windows 10?

[EsotericKnave]

Got this from MS in my Hotmail inbox last tonight:

[EsotericKnave]

The upcoming Windows update will make a change that will now make it impossible to shutdown your pc. Now when you "shutdown", your monitor will show:
https://youtu.be/Qk5Wqb6g4do

[Rick Danger]

Thank you, Mr. EsotericKnave for that bit of humor.

I was afraid we were getting a little too stressed with the tone of our posts !

Years ago this was my logout at work................

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hZrXdJ-ibo

[Rick Danger]

Pretty amazing the comment about Google....................

The Windows 10 privacy debacle: Five big issues to consider

User privacy has been at the forefront of the conversation around Windows 10 since the launch of the new platform. Here are five specific issues that were highlighted by the debacle.

By Conner Forrest | September 24, 2015, 5:46 AM PST

While awareness of user privacy has been rising throughout 2015, one of the biggest issues that has inflamed the conversation has been the release of Windows 10.

The latest version of Microsoft's flagship OS was released as a free download for existing users in July and it defaulted to sharing personal user information with the company. An option to disable the features in question was provided, but even if they were disabled, Windows 10 still seemed to be sending information back to Microsoft.

"Privacy continues to be a hot topic for consumers and it frustrates them to no end when they hear when companies use and expose private information about them without their knowledge," said Gary Davis, chief consumer security evangelist at Intel.

The Windows 10 privacy controversy brought about plenty of backlash from the tech community but, more than that, it heightened the conversation around expectations of privacy in technology in general. Here are five big takeaways:

1. Personalization vs. privacy
Over the past few years, we have seen a gradual shift in Microsoft's business model from traditional software to cloud service. However, said SANS Institute fellow Jason Fossen, properly implementing cloud services for individual users requires personal data.

"Microsoft executives didn't give away free Windows 10 upgrades out of the kindness of their hearts, they need to jump start the Windows Store and Microsoft cloud ecosystem," said Jason Fossen, fellow at the SANS Institute.

What Microsoft is doing with Windows 10 is nothing new. Tech giants like Google, Apple, and Amazon are all collecting and using personal data to customize and improve the product experience for individual users. The major struggle that has been brought to light is the exchange of personal data for convenience and ease of use. The big question becomes: Do we want better privacy or a better product?

"If we want a better product, it may make sense to allow for some communication to be sent back to Microsoft. It's no different than we do in Apple with things like Siri. If you don't use Siri, it doesn't get any better," said John Pironti, president of IP Architects.

There's no definitive answer here, as the individual user will have to choose the level of trade-off that he or she is most comfortable with.

2. Opt-out vs. opt-in
Another issue brought up by Windows 10 was the amount of control users want to exercise over their personal data. With major hacks and breaches hitting the news regularly, many users desire clarity regarding how their data is transmitted, secured, and used.

"Given the sensitivity of privacy that's arisen over the last couple years, I think it's fair to say that individuals want the choice to decide how their systems interact with the world," Pironti said.

Users who downloaded Windows 10 were given the opportunity to opt-out of the default setting for information sharing. This means they were given the chance to disable the features that sent personal data back to Microsoft either at the time of install (if they went with a custom install) or after the fact.

Users in countries like the US have come to accept opt-out as the de facto model for new software and services. However, places such as the UK and EU, Pironti said, have an opt-in model where the default is to send no personal information, but users can click a button, or check box, to allow their information to be used.

This prompts the question of whether we want to be an opt-in society or an opt-out society. Also, though, do we appreciate the implications of what these mean, Pironti asked? Defaulting to sharing may be perceived as a violation of privacy, while defaulting to opt-in means you may not be able to take advantage of certain key features.

3. False options
Despite the hype that emerged over this situation, collecting personal data is a common practice. And, with some companies, the option to opt-out isn't even on the table.

For example, Pironti said, Google admits to caching every search request since day one and they have a massive amount of metadata around those requests. They've never lied about that, but they also never presented a distinct option to opt-out if you want to use their services.

Microsoft, on the other hand, did present a way to opt-out, but it didn't work the way it was expected to work.

"I think the big difference you're running into when we look at Microsoft is that you were given the option to disable and that option is false," Pironti said.

In the grand scheme of things, the bigger issue is that users believed they had an out when, in fact, they didn't. Microsoft and other tech companies need to be more transparent about the limitations of their policies.

"Transparency along with simple-to-understand privacy language and ability to easily set and control one's privacy settings should be top of mind for all companies today," Davis said.

4. Privacy is subjective
The answer to the question of how much privacy we should expect will be different depending on who you ask. Most people have at least one conspiracy theorist in their friend group or family who may desire more privacy than the average user.

These differences also extend out along demographic lines as well. Pironti said that many Millennial users feel as if they don't have privacy any more and they are more willing to give up privacy for more features. While older users still tend to be less trusting and more wary.

Personal information is collected and used for a variety of reasons, but it is usually something benign like advertising or personalizing an application, Fossen said. Bear in mind, though, once your information has been commoditized in a way you don't like, there is almost no way to reverse it.

"If you trust Microsoft to protect your interests, and you trust the technical skill of Microsoft's engineers to protect your information, then sign up for everything without reservation," Fossen said.

5. Companies vs. users
The impact of the controversy surrounding Windows 10 didn't actually deal a major blow to Microsoft. The initial install rate was very high, and the stories that broke about the privacy issues in the OS didn't appear to slow it much.

When asked if he thought users had lost trust in Microsoft, Pironti said he didn't think they had. As public as the issues were, if everyone was truly worried, he said, there would be a higher rate of uninstalls of the OS.

Fixing the problem requires effort from both tech companies and their users. Microsoft and other tech giants need to be more forthcoming about their treatment of personal information and they must spell it out clearly in official documentation. Things like Google's privacy dashboard are a good start.

Users must push back on features they are not comfortable with. Facebook, for example, has changed its privacy guidelines many times. Sometimes, the user base has pushed back against these changes and Facebook has had to back off on certain updates.

So far, Pironti said, what we've seen is just an initial reaction to change. The tech market will continue to shift and users will grow alongside it in their reactions and responses.

"Like everything else, we'll adapt and we'll have to decide what are our reasonable expectations and what are the limits we're willing to accept and not accept," Pironti said. "And, I think that we'll learn together with Microsoft and they will adjust their approach the same."

[Rick Danger]

So, I was at a flea market Sunday, eyeing a used Dell desktop with Windows 7 for $135/$130 cash. I really prefer desktops: they are so much easier for me to maintain and upgrade. I had my last desktop for about twelve years. I went through three laptops during that same span of time.

I thought "this would be a good machine to try a Windows 10 upgrade". But the more I reflected on the reasons why I pulled my current Windows 8.1 laptops out of the upgrade path, I realized that I still have NO fundamental reason for upgrading a device to Windows 10.

To reiterate without being redundant:

* Being a user of Firefox and Chrome, I see no reason to use the Edge browser. And reviews I've read show it lacks functionality in it's current incarnation.
* Cortana may be a novel experiment, but I really can't see myself installing it on the non-Windows hardware (Apple iPad, Android Phones and tablets) that my wife and I currently use.
* Xbox and Windows Phone integration hold no interest for me. These would be the first two "features" that I would look to uninstall from any Windows 10 device I might own.
* The Windows Store to quote Woody Leonhard is full of "crap apps".
* Groove Music is NOT a worthy successor to Windows Media Player for maintaining a catalog of music and playlists. And the fact it doesn't support importing existing WMP playlists and does not support the playing of video files or DVDs makes it virtually useless to me.
* The lack of control for Windows 10 Home or Pro users over the update process for me is a non-starter. And the fact that three of the earliest updates to Windows 10 all caused problems hardly instills confidence.
* While I am pretty sure I could defeat most of Microsoft's data collection activities, I have a concern that Redmond will define such attempts as a violation of the EULA - and proceed to block the system from receiving any updates.
* I have older applications that run for me just fine on Windows 8.1. Would they still run on Windows 10? Why risk finding out? "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".
* I still have plenty of time left before support for Windows 7, 8, or 8.1 expires (unless Microsoft decides to pull something cute and yank the rug out from under us).

What would get me to reconsider ? First, pull Edge, Cortana, Xbox, and Windows Phone integration OUT of the operating system and make them separate install packages (not likely to happen). Two, make the Windows Store useful. It lags far behind its competitors. Three, give Windows 10 users the same options over the update process that all other Windows users have - or at least the option to allow notification without installing the updates. And oh yes, please make sure to provide useful details as to what the non-security related updates are. Simply saying "This update enhances the user experience" or some such garbage is about as useful as an empty wallet at a Las Vegas casino. Finally, turn off the data collection and ads by default and allow those interested to "opt in".

Of course, do I think all this is going to happen? No. So I guess I won't be upgrading for a long time.

[Rick Danger]

Following a reference from the article "Ten Reasons You Shouldn't Upgrade to Windows 10" by Woody Leonhard (InfoWorld.com, August 20, 2015) , I went to a website called law.stackexchange.com.

This represents a Q&A on the question of privacy rights and the Windows 10 End User License Agreement (EULA).

Law beta
Law Stack Exchange is a question and answer site for legal professionals, students, and others with experience or interest in law. It's 100% free, no registration required.

Windows 10 Eula Privacy Rights

Many are claiming that Windows 10's data collection is much more invasive than previous Microsoft products, even claiming that Windows 10 ships with a keylogger and reports every keystroke back to Microsoft. Most locally, this question on the Stack Exchange network makes some of the same claims.

However, it seems that many of those sources have conflated the developer pre-release version of Windows 10 with the official release, and I'm having trouble separating the wheat from the chaff. My goal in asking this question is to look past the sensationalist reporting and see what rights Microsoft holds.

The official End-User License Agreement for the final retail release of Windows 10 says the following:

Privacy; Consent to Use of Data. Your privacy is important to us. Some of the software features send or receive information when using those features. Many of these features can be switched off in the user interface, or you can choose not to use them. By accepting this agreement and using the software you agree that Microsoft may collect, use, and disclose the information as described in the Microsoft Privacy Statement (aka.ms/privacy), and as may be described in the user interface associated with the software features.

The referenced Microsoft Privacy Statement says the following:

Microsoft collects data to operate effectively and provide you the best experiences with our services. [...] We get some of it by recording how you interact with our services by, for example, using technologies like cookies, and receiving error reports or usage data from software running on your device. We also obtain data from third parties (including other companies).

Microsoft uses the data we collect to provide you the services we offer, which includes using data to improve and personalize your experiences. [...] We use data to help make the ads we show you more relevant to you. However, we do not use what you say in email, chat, video calls or voice mail, or your documents, photos or other personal files to target ads to you.

Windows 10 ("Windows") is a personalized computing environment that enables you to seamlessly roam and access services, preferences and content across your computing devices from phones to tablets to the Surface Hub. Rather than residing as a static software program on your device, key components of Windows are cloud-based, and both cloud and local elements of Windows are updated regularly, providing you with the latest improvements and features. In order to provide this computing experience, we collect data about you, your device, and the way you use Windows. And because Windows is personal to you, we give you choices about the personal data we collect and how we use it.

Putting aside the technical question of what information the software actually does collect (which would be off topic)...

From a legal standpoint, in the retail version of Windows 10:

How does Microsoft's claim to user data differ from previous versions of Windows?
Does Microsoft have the right to record arbitrary keystrokes or clicks made while using their operating system and send that data to external servers?
Does Microsoft have the right to share user usage data with third parties (such as advertising agencies), either at a price or without compensation? Despite saying that they currently don't use data directly from our personal files for this purpose, do they have a right to begin doing so at any time?

asked Aug 14 at 19:53
Woodrow Barlow

In what country? Data privacy laws vary by country, and Microsoft's EULA does not override a country's data privacy laws. – cpast Aug 14 at 19:57

@cpast in that case, i suppose asking about the united states would cover the largest audience. – Woodrow Barlow Aug 14 at 19:59

I don't know why everybody is so worked up. Most of these provisions have been in their privacy agreements for as long as I can remember, which is over two decades. Why is there suddenly such a ruckus? – user3079037 Aug 21 at 19:33

2 Answers

TL;DR – Microsoft users have no Microsoft granted privacy rights

AFAICT Microsoft does not recognize privacy rights for users other than whatever rights can be enforced by law or arbitration.

You may already realize that and be asking what those legal/arbitration rights are, but I'm providing this answer in case you or others aren't yet clear on Microsoft's written position.

Many MS products and services are affected, not just Windows 10

The key legal document to focus on is Microsoft's Privacy policy document.

This policy applies to many Microsoft products and services, including, but definitely not limited to, Windows 10.

Microsoft's Privacy document enumerates Microsoft's claimed sharing rights

As far as I can tell, Microsoft's approach is that they do not enumerate their users' rights. Instead, they enumerate what they consider to be their rights to share users' data, presumably to provide them with a defense in the event of lawsuits.

So I'd guess users have whatever rights can be enforced by successfully settling disputes with Microsoft.

Settling disputes with Microsoft

While the privacy issues are laid out in the Microsoft Privacy document that applies to many Microsoft products and services, the Windows 10 EULA adds the interesting twist that US users agree to an unmissable clause binding them to settle disputes individually via arbitration rather than via law courts or class action law suits.

Current Microsoft Privacy policy: "Reasons We Share"

So, when does Microsoft assert their right to share your personal emails etc. and with whom?

A new Microsoft Privacy policy document went in to effect August 1, 2015.

Key sentences from the "Reasons We Share Personal Data" section are:

We share your personal data with your consent or as necessary to complete any transaction or provide any service you have requested or authorized.

In addition, we share personal data among Microsoft-controlled affiliates and subsidiaries.

We also share personal data with vendors or agents working on our behalf for the purposes described in this statement.

We may also disclose personal data as part of a corporate transaction such as a merger or sale of assets.

Finally, we will access, disclose and preserve personal data ... when we have a good faith belief that doing so is necessary to ... comply with applicable law or respond to valid legal process ... protect our customers, for example to prevent spam ... operate and maintain the security of our services ... protect the rights or property of Microsoft

Windows 10 data collection defaults to "Full" mode

You've said that what data is collected is off topic. But I think it's worth recognizing that, with Windows 10, Microsoft have made the most popular install option collect all available locally collected data ("Full" collection) and have effectively made it a breech of contract to reduce it below a minimal level ("Basic" collection) that they get to determine and change as they see fit. And they can pretty much enforce the latter; if you hack a system to stop "Basic" data being sent to MS, they explicitly disable updates for that system.
shareimprove this answer
edited Aug 31 at 17:27
feetwet♦

answered Aug 15 at 22:23
raiph

[...]if you hack a system to stop "Basic" data being sent to MS, they explicitly disable updates for that system.[...] In this case, how about applying updates manually? Is it possible? – Asad Malik Aug 27 at 16:50

To quote from the Microsoft Privacy Statement: "We use data to help make the ads we show you more relevant to you. However, we do not use what you say in email, chat, video calls or voice mail, or your documents, photos or other personal files to target ads to you."

So they do not use it to target ads - but they have an open field on anything else they wish to do with the content of email, chat, video calls and voicemail. This 'free' version of windows appears to be a development version and it is sending back debug information to Microsoft. If your personal photos, social security number or credit card details are sent to Microsoft they will not use them for targeting ads but appear to have carte blanche to use them for anything else.
shareimprove this answer
answered Sep 14 at 17:07
Ian W

sources:

http://www.infoworld.com/article/297...indows-10.html

http://law.stackexchange.com/questio...privacy-rights

[Misrule]

As an alternative view to our collective paranoia, there is a lucid article on ZDNet that provides an alternative explanation of the data privacy issues in Win 10. It's worth reading to get a different perspective.
http://www.zdnet.com/article/microso...privacy-furor/

[masque51]

I was checking my update history for Windows 7 and found that for 5 days in a row (from Sep 11-15) attempts were made to update my computer to Windows 10 Home. Unsuccessfully, but I never authorized any such thing. Who the hell do they think they are?

[9876543210]

masque51,

Originally Posted by masque51

I was checking my update history for Windows 7 and found that for 5 days in a row (from Sep 11-15) attempts were made to update my computer to Windows 10 Home. Unsuccessfully, but I never authorized any such thing. Who the hell do they think they are?

Welcome to the true nature of MS. They say one thing, of course, but do something completely different. They've been pulling stuff like this for as long as I can remember.

[drwho6]

Originally Posted by masque51

I was checking my update history for Windows 7 and found that for 5 days in a row (from Sep 11-15) attempts were made to update my computer to Windows 10 Home. Unsuccessfully, but I never authorized any such thing. Who the hell do they think they are?

It' s pre-checked in windows 7 updates. If updates are set to automatic, it will try to download. Which is why mine are set to manual. I've learned after having issues with several previous updates, to check and review everything first.