The Second World War.

[Warren G]

No, Hitler could be brilliant. But I believe drugs were his downfall. Towards the end of the war, he was so pumped up with amphetamines, and barbiturates to sleep, he became delusional, and made many bad decisions, against the advice of his generals.

Frankly, Hitler and Germany were so well prepared for that war that if it wasn't for his drug induced mistakes we would have never won the war. I think we barely missed the bullet on that one.

[jokerman]

As far as an invasion of Britain goes. Hitler would also have needed a navy powerful enough to take on the Royal Navy. Something that after the German naval losses in Norway he didn't have.

In an earlier post I mentioned Britains' war with Vichy france. France at that time had a very Modern & powerful fleet. If these had fallen into German hands it might have tipped the balance in Hitler's favour.

As we know Hitler left the French navy alone. Why he did this is still open to debate. It's possible that wanted to keep France pacified should an invasion gone ahead, or it's equally possible that he was just biding his time until he wanted them.

[squigg58]

Originally Posted by palo5

Hitler wasn't crazy, Comrade. But he was a gambler, and could keep his people (and generals) onside, even when his bets went wrong. Stalin thought he had some kind of genius, and it's hard to disagree with him

Originally Posted by Warren G

No, Hitler could be brilliant. But I believe drugs were his downfall. Towards the end of the war, he was so pumped up with amphetamines, and barbiturates to sleep, he became delusional, and made many bad decisions, against the advice of his generals.

Frankly, Hitler and Germany were so well prepared for that war that if it wasn't for his drug induced mistakes we would have never won the war. I think we barely missed the bullet on that one.

I think I'd put forward the case that anyone who came to power using violence and threats; who had those who opposed him sent to concentration camps or simply had them shot; who enforced a policy of "racial purity"; and who chose to invade other countries in order to expand his own sphere of influence; was beyond crazy!

However, I do understand that many of the comments relate to his strategic or tactical awareness in the early part of the war, and he was suitably aided by a lack of preparation on the part of other governments. Having said that, I'm not sure when Hitler started popping pills, but his orders on 24th May 1940 to halt the German armour allowed the large-scale evacuation of hundreds of thousands of men across the Channel, and that doesn't strike me as being the actions of a genius. It was also Hitler's decision to switch the Luftwaffe attacks from the RAF airfields to London at a time when the RAF was on it's knees. He was motivated by a desire for revenge following an RAF raid on Berlin, and any decent commander knows that you should stick to a strategy that's working and not be goaded into changing your plans by an insignificant, token gesture of an attack by the enemy.

[Ennath]

May 13-June 17 1939
World Affairs The liner SS St. Louis carries 936 Jewish refugees. They are denied entry in Cuba, the USA and Canada. 288 are allowed to debark in England. The rest go to France, Belgium, and Holland where most will later perish in the Holocaust.

May 13, 1940
Western Front The German Panzer divisions cross the Meuse at two places at Sedan and Dinant after difficult fighting. The French troops opposing them have not prepared their positions properly and are demoralized and terrorized by heavy dive-bomber attacks. At Sedan Guderian is right at the front, urging his troops on and at Dinant the young commander of 7th Panzer Division, General Rommel, is also doing well. A planned counterattack by French armor is delayed till the following morning. The French doctrine of “methodical battle” is proving inadequate to the speed of the German operations. Farther north, the Germans take Liege. The first major tank battle in history occurs around Hannult in Belgium, with over 1500 AFV’s involved; 100 French and 160 German vehicles are destroyed. In Holland the defense has now been totally disrupted. The advancing German ground troops have linked with the paratroops at Moerdijk and the Dutch command orders a retreat to positions known as “Fortress Holland” in the triangle Amsterdam-Rotterdam-Utrecht. Queen Wilhelmina and the Dutch government are taken to London at different times during the day. A planned German raid to capture the Dutch royal family is cancelled after the transport planes crash on take-off. Giraud’s 7th Army is in full retreat.
Norway The Allied forces start their advance on Narvik from Harstad. The first landings along the way, at Bjerkvik, 10 miles north of Narvik, are successfully carried out by French troops.
Britain, Home Front Churchill makes the first of a famous series of inspirational speeches in a radio broadcast. He states “I have nothing to offer but blood, toil, tears, and sweat. We have before us an ordeal of the most grievous kind. We have before us many, many long months of struggle and of suffering. You ask, what is our policy? I can say: It is to wage war, by sea, land and air, with all our might and with all the strength that God can give us; to wage war against a monstrous tyranny, never surpassed in the dark, lamentable catalogue of human crime. That is our policy. You ask, what is our aim? I can answer in one word: It is victory, victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory, however long and hard the road may be; for without victory, there is no survival.”

May 13, 1941
Germany, Politics Martin Bormann is appointed to Hess’s former position. He is given the title of party chancellor, an important step in his rise to power.
Middle East, Politics The exiled Grand Mufti of Jerusalem broadcasts from Baghdad, again proclaiming a jihad and summoning all Islamic countries to fight against Britain.
North Africa A British probing attack toward Tobruk is repulsed.
Eastern Front Stalin orders 28 more divisions to the western borders.

May 13, 1942
Burma Japanese troops pursuing Chinese 6th Army cross the Salween on the way to Kengtung.
Fiji US troops replace the New Zealand garrison.
Eastern Front Soviet troops begin to withdraw from Kerch in the face of German attacks. About 80,000 manage to get away. The Kerch peninsula is cleared by the 18th. A rearguard of a few regiments is left in the catacombs of Adzimushkay. The Kharkov offensive presses forward.

May 13, 1943
Tunisia Marshal Messe orders the surrender of the remaining German and Italian troops. Altogether, 250,000 have been captured in last few days, half of them German. Alexander sends the following message to Churchill to report the end of the African campaign: “It is my duty to report that the Tunis campaign is over. All enemy resistance has ceased. We are masters of the North African shores.”
Aleutians The American forces are still being contained virtually in their landing areas on Attu although they now outnumber the Japanese by about 4-1. Bad weather has been hindering US air support and the terrain is very difficult. The Japanese defense is vigorous and well coordinated. In the north, attacks fail to dislodge the Japanese from Hill X.

May 13, 1944
Italy The US and British forces continue to push forward doggedly. Santa Maria Infante is taken by the Americans and Sant’Angelo by the British. The Poles are again repulsed at Cassino. The French, however, are still doing well. On their left they take Castelforte and push on. In the center Monte Maio is captured and on their right they reach north to the Liri at Sant’Appollinaire.
France, Resistance Sabotage halts the production of self-propelled guns at the Lorraine-Dietrich works.
Eastern Front The campaign in the Crimea is over. Altogether 130,000 Germans and Rumanians have been evacuated by sea and another 21,500 by air since April 12, but a further 78,000 have been killed or captured and many of those evacuated have been wounded.
Burma Having tried to take Tingkrukawng by frontal attack the Chinese and Americans push on to bypass the Japanese positions.
At Kohima, the British bulldoze a track allowing a tank to be brought up and finally clear Kohima Ridge. Fighting continues in Naga Village.
China On the Salween, the Japanese almost wipe out a Chinese battalion, but the situation is restored when reinforcements are dispatched. Fresh Chinese regiments cross the Salween and recapture the positions lost at Tatangtzu Pass.

May 13-25, 1944
China In heavy fighting the Japanese capture besieged Luoyang. By the end of the month, all of Honan province is under Japanese control.

May 13, 1945
Yugoslavia Most of Army Group E surrenders. A few units still resist. Most remaining resistance consists of units trying to escape from the Russians to hand themselves over to the Americans.
The Philippines Del Monte airfield on Mindanao falls after heavy fighting. I Corps completes the occupation of Balete Pass, clearing the way into the Cagayan Valley.
Ryukyu Islands 6th Marine Division, at high cost, completes the capture of Dakeshi Ridge.
Burma In Arakan, 82nd West African Division enters Gwa unopposed.

[palo5]

Originally Posted by squigg58

I think I'd put forward the case that anyone who came to power using violence and threats; who had those who opposed him sent to concentration camps or simply had them shot; who enforced a policy of "racial purity"; and who chose to invade other countries in order to expand his own sphere of influence; was beyond crazy!

Well, we both hate him, so we agree there

But to call him crazy is to make excuses for him, because for sure he was not insane. He was evil and often deluded - like the Klan, except a gazillion times worse

But he was also brilliant in his way, and possessed a phenomenal memory, much better than his generals'. And unlike any dictator I can think of, he was democratically elected by an educated people. So there was clearly more to him than 'simple insanity'

...Having said that...his orders on 24th May 1940 to halt the German armour allowed the large-scale evacuation of hundreds of thousands of men across the Channel, and that doesn't strike me as being the actions of a genius...

You're right, but even 'geniuses' can do very stupid things. This was one of them. I've read accounts by his adjutants, bodyguard, secretary, people who shared his everyday life, and they all say he admired England and didn't want to be at war with them. He probably hoped you'd give up and go away, and I believe there's some truth in this

He wanted Britain to keep its Empire, you know. Which is strange, because Roosevelt & Truman thought exactly the opposite

[Mal Hombre]

Originally Posted by palo5

He probably hoped you'd give up and go away, and I believe there's some truth in this

He wanted Britain to keep its Empire, you know. Which is strange, because Roosevelt & Truman thought exactly the opposite

I agree,I've always thought that was what The Battle of Britain was about,To make Us give up,Not preparing for an invasion.

[palo5]

Originally Posted by Warren G

...Frankly, Hitler and Germany were so well prepared for that war that if it wasn't for his drug induced mistakes we would have never won the war. I think we barely missed the bullet on that one.

I disagree, Comrade. They weren't well prepared for war, and would never have the resources to beat the British Empire, the USSR and the USA. His only hope was another Revolution in Russia, or an A-bomb

Talking of A-bombs, I've read the Americans told Hitler in 1942/43 not to develop them or they would cover Germany in poison gas. Apparently, Hitler was terrified of gas, so he 'obeyed' them

[Ennath]

Can't entirely blame Hitler for the May 24 halt order. Rundstedt ordered the halt; Hitler just confirmed it. Of course, he could have overruled Rundstedt, but didn't.

[mjm1963]

other classic decisions that sealed Germany's fate;

The General staff's decision to delay Hitler's order to up-gun the Panzer III with the long barreled 50mm L/60 in 1940. This decision was reversed at the end of 1941 by which time the Panzerwaffe had met the T34.

I'm not saying the Panzer III was a better tank than the T34 but the long barrelled 50 mm was a good gun and if there had been substantial number available at the time of operation Barbarossa things might have been a little different

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by mjm1963

I'm not saying the Panzer III was a better tank than the T34 but the long barrelled 50 mm was a good gun and if there had been substantial number available at the time of operation Barbarossa things might have been a little different

It is odd when you think how much the German forces achieved tactically, but in fact Operation Barbarossa was an ultimately fatal reverse for Germany in WW2. It failed strategically. In order to succeed, the Germans needed to force Stalin to sue for peace; they achieved this in their previous campaigns by overrunning the enemy country's territory, crushing their armies in the field and rendering the country indefensible. But this was never going to happen to a country as large as the Soviet Union through Operation Barbarossa.

Hitler could have succeeded by dividing Russia against itself. The Communist Party was feared and hated and had misgoverned the country; it also operated a counter-productive strategy of regarding all Soviet soldiers who were captured as traitors; the story of Andrei Vlassov shows how this approach could have been used against Stalin, if the Germans had not been welded to their racist ideology and reluctant to cooperate with Russian allies.

Another possible winning strategy would have been to induce the Japanese to invade Siberia and force Stalin to fight a war on two fronts. As far as I know, the only occasion on which Russia has had this problem was during the Civil War of 1918-22; even the massive Red Army would have been in trouble. Depend on it that the American government would have stayed out; neutrality was working out extremely well for the USA until Pearl Harbour. I am by no means convinced that even Britain would have declared war on Japan in that situation, given that Churchill was well aware that Malaya and Burma were weakly defended. I suspect that Russia would be fighting in Europe with British support but fighting in Asia with no allies except Chiang Kai Shek. This woud have been an uncomfortable problem.

But by itself Barbarossa was a slow-motion cutting of her own throat by Germany. The former Soviet Union covered nearly 20% on the entire land surface of the earth; even an invading army of 3.9 million soldiers (I am including all Germany's allies) would never be big enough unless the enemy capitulated, and the Germans weren't offering terms on which anyone would agree to capitulate. Outright victory for Germany needed a lot more than a more effective gun on the Panzer Mark 3.

The really silly part of it all was that Germany drew on Russia for up to 70% of her imports between 1939 and June 1941. In alliance with Russia, she could have been invincible. I am sure she could never have invaded Britain after missing her best chance in 1940; but without allies, Britain would have negotiated eventually. It is hard to realise now how exhausted the British people were by 1945, literally worked into the ground, short rations, not enough sleep. To sustain that, you need to believe there is a purpose. Mere stalemate, lasting for years on end, under those conditions, would have sapped the British morale eventually.