Charlottesville, Virginia [Ban The Klan?]

[Mal Hombre]

No reasons justify taking any action that propagates slavery,If He would not defend His country,He should at least not have fought against it,He should have stayed out of the conflict altogether.

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by Mal Hombre

No reasons justify taking any action that propagates slavery,If He would not defend His country,He should at least not have fought against it,He should have stayed out of the conflict altogether.

Presumably he was defending his country, which he considered to be the state of Virginia.

One of the many ironies of the American Civil War was that the CSA had built into it the seeds of its own destruction. It could never have survived, not even if it could have won, which it could not. Its entire basis was the right of secession and of course it would have split apart. It would have been destroyed from within, by the pettiness and egotism of its own leaders and by its philosophical position that states rights were supreme. Lee was from Virginia and he fought his war on the Virginia northern borders. History, which he helped to make, has decided where patriotism should lie for a citizen of Virginia today, but it was not so decided in 1860, no.

I would have been a coward and refused to fight in the American Civil War. Principle and opposition to slavery would not have moved me one iota. Those Minie rifle ball rounds were horrible and there was none of this full metal jacket nonsense, they distorted on impact and expended all their kinetic energy on you. No thanks.

[Roubignol]

Originally Posted by Mal Hombre

No reasons justify taking any action that propagates slavery,If He would not defend His country,He should at least not have fought against it,He should have stayed out of the conflict altogether.

But was it possible to him to stay out of the conflict without risking his own life?
He'd have to leave his country like Albert Einstein.
A few people are able to do this.

I'd like to know how many young men were killed on battlefields and would have prefered to stay at home with their families?
Probably millions.

[vinceprince]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

Presumably he was defending his country, which he considered to be the state of Virginia.

History, which he helped to make, has decided where patriotism should lie for a citizen of Virginia today, but it was not so decided in 1860, no.

I would have been a coward and refused to fight in the American Civil War. Principle and opposition to slavery would not have moved me one iota. Those Minie rifle ball rounds were horrible and there was none of this full metal jacket nonsense, they distorted on impact and expended all their kinetic energy on you. No thanks.

"Patriotism is the willingness to kill and be killed for trivial reasons." - Bertrand Russell

[Puhbear69]

Originally Posted by Mal Hombre

No reasons justify taking any action that propagates slavery,If He would not defend His country,He should at least not have fought against it,He should have stayed out of the conflict altogether.

Slavery was still morally accepted in many countries in the 18th century. So also in England for example in the - now foreign - territories.

And not to forget in England (Germany too, I know) itself, whose labour wasn't so far from it at this time with no social backup at all. Just remember of Karl Marx.

I don't want to justify slavery - surly not - but it wasn't even unusual and accepted by those, who wasn't slaves

[crinolynne]

Originally Posted by Mal Hombre

.When You fight for an evil cause there are no reasons that absolve You of complicity.

If choosing not to fight will result in my death, perhaps horribly, the death of my children, my extended family, should I die for others of whom I know nothing, share nothing? I pray none of us are faced with such a choice, but I cannot condemn one who choose their family.

[Arturo2nd]

Originally Posted by movieman88

Do not put people who use, enjoy & will champion for using military weapons in the same boat with these fuckers.
Go on YouTube, you will find countless people like Hickok45 or Tim from military arms who own such weapons & will never harm anyone or hold any bigoted opinions in their life.

Quite right, your responsible gun owners don't go around brandishing weapons like those punks in Charlottesville did. Unfortunately, there is some overlap between the two groups. Normal gun enthusiasts would do well to distance themselves from these "allies."

Originally Posted by scoundrel

The political backlash against the extremely pro-slavery Copperhead Buchanan administration culminated in the first Republican Party election victory and the inauguration of President Lincoln. The clear-cut victory of abolitionists at the polls in turn triggered the secession of the CSA states, one by one, Tennessee last of all; they felt, probably correctly, that their long established economic and social way of life was going to be turned upside down, and they rebelled.

If the Democratic party had not split and nominated two candidates, Stephen A. Douglas and John C. Breckenridge, Lincoln would have been unlikely to have been elected. There was also a third party candidate, John Bell. It was the inability of the Southern and Northern Democrats to resolve their differences that guaranteed Lincoln's victory due to his taking all but three Electoral College votes from the northern states.

[scoundrel]

John C Breckenridge: now there is a traitor, no doubt about it. Breckenridge went on to be an important general in the CSA army and eventually the CSA's Secretary of State for War. Unlike General Lee, Breckenridge wanted to have it both ways. He wanted to be elected as US president in 1860 and would have had to pledge the Presidential oath had he won; and yet he still wanted to argue that he could walk away from allegiance to the USA any time he wanted to. He reminds me of Rick Perry.

I don't consider Lee to have been dishonourable, but there were plenty of others on the CSA side who certainly were dishonourable, and Breckenridge was clearly one of those IMHO. He wasn't even from the CSA states but was born and raised in Kentucky, so he fought against his own people and on the side of slavery. Not much to be said in his defence I think: he was worse than a Copperhead.

[Roubignol]

AUSTIN, Texas (AP) — University of Texas President Greg Fenves ordered the immediate removal of statues of Robert E. Lee and other prominent Confederate figures from a main area of campus, saying such monuments have become "symbols of modern white supremacy and neo-Nazism."

University of Texas removes Confederate statues

[scoundrel]

I would not be surprised if there is a whole series of statue removals as a reaction to Chancellorsville. The reason will be to remove symbols of racist oppression. I can't help thinking that neo-Nazi skinhead thugs and the opposing demonstrators have one thing in common; they know no history.

If more Americans knew the real story of Robert E Lee they might appreciate that he would almost certainly not have wanted anything to do with people who go against his word given in the surrender and argue for renewed disloyalty against the United States. These people rally at General Lee's statue but by doing so they disrespect him, while professing to honour him. The true role model of the right wing demonstrators is Jesse James, I reckon: a sociopathic scumbag who got what he deserved, and it was good riddance to bad rubbish.