What is to blame for Paris attack? A. Religion; B. Islam; C. Testosterone; D. Insanity.

[cicciobuki]

Originally Posted by rodak

Who's to blame? Well. Partly the French government. (snip) So much for gun control. Evil people will always find a way to get their hands on firearms.

Please don't bring those silly gun rights ideas to Europe, i don't want to be worrying about every idiot i see on the street having a license to be carrying a gun! (take it from me, i see a lot of idiots on the street)

In truth I hope the French nor anyone else never captures these animals and brings them before a European court for justice.
I hope they are found interrogated and then slaughtered in that order for their actions.

While i can agree with you on this part, those guys are dead now (as they should be)

[cicciobuki]

Originally Posted by rodak

Legal gun owners do stop a few more shootings than the liberal media will report.
Also.
If the French government had thrown a firearm or two the way of the unarmed police officer who was assassinated.. He might still be alive today.

While i won't deny that legal gun owners can stop some shootings, many people carrying guns will also cause more shootings and/or accidents (that is only logical).
But I doubt a regular legal gun owner can stop a bunch of crazy gangsters with assault rifles though, that's just a different league.

As for the police having guns, i have no trouble with that (these people are supposed to be professionals who have to deal with a lot of nasty situations). Even though 99% of everything can and should be handled without firearms. And that's 99% (a number i pulled out of my @ss but probbly not too far off) because not every average citizen here carries a gun in his pocket.

[beelzebub75]

Hello.
I would say before religion is the main problem, the politicians are the much bigger problem.
who really wants to live in the "banlieus" en paris?
blame the capitalists who sell weapons into these "democratic" countries,mostly ruled by some dictators - remember algier,libya etc?

give the people work or a job and they won't have the time to go postal.

the project europe is like rapidshare died or runs only on 10%. just look at the world economy.

you cant blame it on islam see syria muslims killing muslims, see egypt the same etc.

and the christians fight bad too in africa.

all religions are useless, especially if some people without school education believe every word they promise them since they became 2 years old (koran schools).

what we really need is much more tolerance and not only saving the wall street and the bank system .

and last but no least why put the martyrs, terrorists gods fighter whatever on a court? dont give them the right for free speech,if they are attacking it !!

Regards BB.

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by brk549

Scoundrel,the UK and Europe haven't been their focus,the US and Israel has,the great Satin in their view.This could be the beginning of what they've been wanting for hundreds of years,no one knows because we've collected no intelligence from them in the last several years.Thats why everything is such a surprise when it happens.Evidently there are not as many of them suicidal raving idiots as maybe some of us think because there is nothing to stop them from doing the exact same thing most anywhere most they want about anytime they want.We here have the option,even the French cops didn't have that and died on their knees.If they are able to scrounge up enough suicidal idiots most of you will wish you had the option too.

If only it wasn't a minor typo and the fanatical Islamo-Fascists really did see the USA and Israel as the Great Satin.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9muzyOd4Lh8
Wouldn't that be nice?

But you have made a sound point about intelligence. It is not that there was no intelligence. Possibly there was too much. There are a lot of alienated and bitterly angry young Muslim men in Europe. Not all of them are going to commit terrorist offences. The trick is to identify which are merely decent people with a real grievance (for example exclusion from employment and any chance to get on in life doing honest work); which are bad people with malevolent sympathies but lacking in the spine needed to be anything more than evil Walter Mittys; and which are the real deal, only waiting their chance to strike some foul and dreadful blow. The French intelligence services, who are certainly no less capable than the CIA/FBI or MI5 and the Special Branch in the UK, were perfectly aware that these men existed and were ill disposed. But they did not realise that they were the real deal, or else they would have been watching them far more closely.

The reality is that no matter how good your secret police are, they can't promise to catch everyone. Nor for that matter are the Islamo-Fascist scum the only terrorist threat out there. But if we had no secret police, our societies would be in chaos, every bit as exposed to terrorism as Iraq today, where the mechanisms of a modern state have failed. There are many murderous plots foiled for every plot which reaches completion, and it is intelligence-led policing which achieves most of that success. It is our secret police who can stop the terrorists striking and most of the time they have done it; but they will never stop all the plots.

[brk549]

With the threats that were made I wonder why the police hadn't stepped up security around the paper.Maybe they did or maybe the paper didn't want it.I don't know enough about what went on before but it sure seemed to be a awfully easy target for them to be such a big target.

[cicciobuki]

Originally Posted by brk549

With the threats that were made I wonder why the police hadn't stepped up security around the paper.Maybe they did or maybe the paper didn't want it.I don't know enough about what went on before but it sure seemed to be a awfully easy target for them to be such a big target.

IIRC they did have stricter security a while ago.

[ConstantOgler]

Originally Posted by Estreeter

Power, and it's quest for it

Been like that since Man first started killing each other. I never buy the argument that it's religion, never have or will. Religion is used as a tool by the insane to dupe the weak minded to get that power IMHO

*Power* is great for explaining what Leaders are doing (pope, priests, mullahs). But they are small %. It's the Followers, who act, and whose motives are in question. You say 'weak minds'. But why are so many weak in this same way?
That's why I don't think *Power* replaces *Religion* in these discussions.

But, I would agree, to do something about it you must focus on the Leaders.

Originally Posted by loosegoose

No doubt every religion has it's fundamentalist lunatics, but one religion in particular has more than it's fair share of them. And I am really over that religion's members declaring that we shouldn't judge them by a few fanatics.

I'm no Quran expert but apparently there is no room for separation of church/state, spiritual and political. It dictates for the here and now. Christ supposedly said "My kingdom is not of this Earth". But for most of history Christianity mocked that; and change was not led by popes and cardinals. Today fundamentalist Chrisitans can hardly tolerate an independent state.

Originally Posted by cicciobuki

E. All of he above

Too short, but one I agree with most.

Originally Posted by Pauldec

Religion is part of it as religion can and does attract that most dangerous of individuals the moral psychopath. But, y'know it takes a lot of will and desire to go out and murder someone who has never harmed you in any way, so desire implies well...taking pleasure from it? Is that the reason and all the rest (religion, ideology etc.) is just camouflage for a desire/need to hurt. Who knows?

Almost all are suicides or =, not to be ignored. I don't see 'taking pleasure' in a way most of us can relate to. But if you have little purpose or pleasure in life, and prefer to get out, make an Exit with Significance & Meaning. Be a Hero. [Recent shooting of cops in NY a case in point. My next post.]

Originally Posted by blazes

I was in a mosque once with a moslim friend of mine. There were many people talking, praying and interacting with eachother, but I didn't understand what it was all about (my bad). I know for sure that in some of our mosques hate and greed is preached, because hunderts of supporters of the IS rioted in my city (!) against the Kurds half a year ago when they were demostrating for more support for Kubane.

We have no idea what goes on in mosques, but seems to me it's crucial. Most Muslims have no more hate & greed than other humans, but how are the lethal outliers bred? Maybe all you have to do is quietly 'teach' the Quran, as written. Believers take away very different things (who they are). The West wants imams to denounce violence, but they won't denounce the Quran. Mosque attendance -- their bread & butter -- might shrink. They are not Bond-class villains/ power mongers. Just termites who want to keep munching.

Originally Posted by scoundrel

All things considered, I'd say the problem lies in the inherent destructiveness of humanity, which Freud described as the Id. We all have it, but most of us exercise self control and do not allow it to govern us. . . .

Wait! The Id? ? Women have Id's too, but are not doing this! Bet you didn't vote for testosterone! Props to 2 stand-up voters who did! [See past the "I've got plenty of T. It can't be that!"]
Males of a certain age have urges to DO things that are daring/dangerous, and destructive -- mainly to themselves. Denying this is male thing is, well, Denial. When they are out of options, a daring act of Heroism may still be possible. If you think hormones affect body only, not the mind, I might have to start a thread.

Originally Posted by scoundrel

This is the difference. Some of us were born and raised within a civilisation and some were not. It is not merely about wealth or standards of living; most of the 9/11 murderers came from backgrounds more affluent than many people in Europe. But they also came from an uncivilised background, fatally lacking in humanistic values.
. . . think of the Spanish Inquisition for example.

Nailed. Probably, 'Time Warp' or = should be a poll choice. Islam now where Christianity was centuries ago. But religion is just part of a mind-set. What is the role of human minds?

Originally Posted by deepsepia

What's "insane" about it?



What do Islamic State and Boko Haram have in common?

Are you joking? Most people would say Lanza murders of schoolchildren were insanity. And you? (Don't know your definition of insanity, if any.) Likewise Norwegian mass murderer, even though he had a political "cause". Both cases, many lives wasted, including perps, achieving no sane purpose. Are Paris perps sane b/c of a religious/political cover? Are any of the ends they achieved sane? (Including what they thought they might achieve, but oc won't, Holy War.)

They are about wars for power, territory, and wealth, = to Europe centuries ago; in time-warp 3rd-world countries. Now as then, religion is a cover. Faith & doctrines have zip to do with it.
[PS: "in common"? How about High T? Not many Lady Warriors.]

[Wendigo]

Originally Posted by ConstantOgler

Islam is now where Christianity was centuries ago. But religion is just part of a mind-set. What is the role of human minds?

I agree when Christianity split it was largely due to widespread corruption especially the selling of indulgences, which isn't far off the militant Islamists promising a trip to heaven to murderers.

Islam needs to put its own mosque in order. Frankly I cannot ever see an Islamic version of Martin Luther.

B
Islam is to blame as it has no formal structure to bring these mad Imams to heel and is unwilling or unable to close down mosques that foster hatred.

[Norkles]

President Al Sissi made a huge speech saying that Islam needs to be reformed. I couldn't believe my ears when I heard it. A major figure in a huge Arab powerhouse country like Egypt saying something that no one had to brass to admit until now.

What I want to know is how the French intel services dropped the ball on this attack. Their intel service is as good as Britain and Israel's Mossad.

[howerd]

The answer to this question is best answered by those who call for jihad - Muslim Fundamentalists. Contrary to popular belief these people aren't all foaming at the mouth numbskulls who can barely string together a coherent sentence or God forbid write eloquently. Nope they are frequently highly educated people with degrees & good jobs but their minds have been so corrupted by the particular passages in the Koran they really & truly believe that what the creator of the universe wants is for them to completely exterminate any one who does not follow their particular interpretation of Islam as written by Allah's chosen last prophet Mohammed word for word as dictated by the supreme being.

Now this may sound like an exaggeration coming from a middle class middle aged European who has next to no experience of 'real' Islam. (Actually I have a fair bit & I've stayed very very poor but perfectly nice & hospitable Muslims whilst visiting Egypt). But notice I haven't said 'Muslims' are the problem because the vast majority of them are not dangerous. I said Islamic fundamentalists i.e. People who take all of the Koran at face value, especially the genocidal verses of which there are over 100. It's these people who are the problem as are any religious folk who take all of the Bible or Torah seriously & there are fundamentalists in many different faiths as well. The difference with Islam is two fold:

Firstly it's a younger religion than Christianity which has by & large grown out of it's 'difficult adolescent' phase when it first flexed it's muscles & threw it's weight around in wars against the 'wrong sort' of believers & imagined threats from witches etc.

Secondly Christianity is largely based on what most Christians will agree is man made or at least interpreted via humans & therefore open to reinterpretation as a result so most folk ignore the really toxic stuff about killing infidels, stoning homosexuals & burning witches by & large. But Muslims are mandate to respect every single line of the Koran because it's entirely God's word. Lock stock & barrel: the good the bad & the ugly.

Anyway you don't have to take it from some anonymous secular source like me. I might be a terrible Islamophobe -& to be honest there certainly are plenty of xenophobes in the west who might use a forum such as this one to spread misinformation & down right lies to discredit Islam. I've seen it myself from people I thought I knew well who painted all Muslims with the same brush as dangerous people when this claim really is a scurrilous lie. But I won't flinch when it come to agreeing that there certainly are some Muslims who take all of the Koran seriously including verses which demand the ethnic cleansing of all non-Muslims & yes these people really are dangerous.

But I repeat don't take it from the likes of me, take it from Radical Islamists who say we must all die. This can be heard right from the horses mouth loud & clear from Islamic State's very slick publication 'Dabiq' No.15 Breaking The Cross' article (written by a woman!) which spells out their motivations are entirely religious rather than political or socially motivated.

This has to be heard to be believed - you couldn't make this up!

Hear it from the horse mouth in this reading from ISIS's magazine article called 'Why We Hate You & Why We Fight You' in following YouTube video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HYLiMaj9Ak