Questions for our American friends - Page 107

**9876543210** · November 9th, 2012, 08:28 PM

Scoundrel,

Hmmm, still not getting my point across.

We in the US have pretty much the same overall electrical utility system. We use the same high power lines and most everything rural and in suburbia is either much simpler above ground power lines or lines buried underground about three or four feet under (depending on where the frost line is). New development is almost all underground while most everything else is above ground. I'm sure you guys are pretty much the same. Except, of course, for the end-user plugs and we just use 110 volts vs. your 240.

What I'm trying to get across would only affect big cities. Cities big enough to have a subway system. One of the big problems people came across in NYC was that many of the subways were flooded (sometimes three or four stories down). And run alongside those subways were the utilities (electrical included). Now, for the most part, this makes complete sense to run them close to each other but, because of Sandy, they all of a sudden found that:

1. the subways were flooded.
2. because the electrical utilities were run right next to the subways, they were also flooded.
3. Electrically powered pumps designed to pump out the subways won't work if there is no power.
4. Realization! We need to move the electrical lines so this doesn't happen again.

Sorry to sound a bit pedantic but I don't know any other way to explain the problem. In NYC (as well as London and who knows where else) this is probably going to have to be addressed quickly. And it could cost a fortune to move the electrical lines in the city.

**scoundrel** · November 9th, 2012, 08:42 PM

I don't think that the national grid utilises the London Underground tunnel network. It is slowly creating its own service tunnels all over London, but this will take a long time. I expect that the eventual outcome will be much more local power generation and we are already headed in that direction due to the spread of solar panels. But whenever the LU tunnels get flooded, power for electric pumps will come from a surface-based electricity grid and the London Fire Service has a lot of diesel pumps for that sort of thing as well. But whenever London gets hit by a massive weather system like Sandy, we can depend on it that there will be glaring weaknesses exposed, though its likely that they will be slightly different from those found in New York.

**9876543210** · November 9th, 2012, 09:10 PM

Scoundrel,

OK, 10-4. I think we're finally on the same page. It sounds like you guys have taken this situation into account. Unlike NYC.

Haven't heard anything in the last day or two buy I think they're still draining some of those subways and, until they're all dry, the power can't be restored to some parts of town.

**scoundrel** · November 10th, 2012, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 9876543210

Scoundrel,

OK, 10-4. I think we're finally on the same page. It sounds like you guys have taken this situation into account. Unlike NYC.

Haven't heard anything in the last day or two buy I think they're still draining some of those subways and, until they're all dry, the power can't be restored to some parts of town.

When I was still at school, one of my teachers (who was a councillor in a neighbouring borough) recounted how he had been on a guided tour of a nuclear shelter for councillors in another city: he opposed the building of one in his own city for several reasons, including that councillors would be rather useless and not worth saving if the balloon ever did go up. The facility had filtered air ventilation, water and independent electricity, and could self-sustain for months, like a nuclear submarine. But he queried the sanitary arrangements.

These consisted of a large bucket. He asked what they planned to do when the bucket was full. Oh; we'll throw it outside....

As Homer Simpson would have said: "Doh!"

So, in order to restore grid power, they need to pump out the subways, and in order to pump out the subways, they need to restore grid power. That is rather an unfortunate arrangement.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yD-ffhvefsw

**9876543210** · November 10th, 2012, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scoundrel

So, in order to restore grid power, they need to pump out the subways, and in order to pump out the subways, they need to restore grid power. That is rather an unfortunate arrangement.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yD-ffhvefsw

Holy cow! Where did you find that! I remember that from years ago, its a great find.

**haroldeye** · November 10th, 2012, 05:11 PM

Having seen potential flood maps of London on a TV prog I would suggest that no power plants or computer banks should be below the first story.

**blueballsdc** · November 10th, 2012, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by haroldeye

Having seen potential flood maps of London on a TV prog I would suggest that no power plants or computer banks should be below the first story.

I remember a few years back when Houston Texas got hit by a hurricane or tropical storm which dropped tons of rain and flooded the city. Most of the hospitals lost power and had to be evacuated despite having back up generators.

When the hospitals were built the back up generators were installed in the basements. All of which got flooded out.

D'Oh!

**mizlaplan** · November 11th, 2012, 08:37 PM

Now that the dust has settled after Obama's victory I was wondering what our US colleagues hoped/expected for the next four years?

**bombermouse** · November 11th, 2012, 10:49 PM

Personally, I hope the legislature gets organized at least to the point that they can enact simple budgetary funding bills without a "crisis" every few months. I don't expect that, I expect continued intransigence, incompetence and stupidity.

**mizlaplan** · November 11th, 2012, 11:26 PM

Oh dear

Is it really that bad?

November 9th, 2012, 08:42 PM	#1062
scoundrel Super Moderator Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: England Posts: 26,266 Thanks: 162,477 Thanked 278,814 Times in 26,211 Posts	I don't think that the national grid utilises the London Underground tunnel network. It is slowly creating its own service tunnels all over London, but this will take a long time. I expect that the eventual outcome will be much more local power generation and we are already headed in that direction due to the spread of solar panels. But whenever the LU tunnels get flooded, power for electric pumps will come from a surface-based electricity grid and the London Fire Service has a lot of diesel pumps for that sort of thing as well. But whenever London gets hit by a massive weather system like Sandy, we can depend on it that there will be glaring weaknesses exposed, though its likely that they will be slightly different from those found in New York. __________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

November 11th, 2012, 08:37 PM	#1068
mizlaplan Good show! Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: The Marches Posts: 2,526 Thanks: 102,981 Thanked 31,900 Times in 2,528 Posts	Now that the dust has settled after Obama's victory I was wondering what our US colleagues hoped/expected for the next four years? __________________ motley crew though they were, they were all happily united in the roisterous, bawdy camaraderie of lust.

November 11th, 2012, 11:26 PM	#1070
mizlaplan Good show! Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: The Marches Posts: 2,526 Thanks: 102,981 Thanked 31,900 Times in 2,528 Posts	Oh dear Is it really that bad? __________________ motley crew though they were, they were all happily united in the roisterous, bawdy camaraderie of lust.

November 9th, 2012, 08:28 PM	#1061
9876543210 Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 4,044 Thanks: 24,638 Thanked 34,438 Times in 4,008 Posts	Scoundrel, Hmmm, still not getting my point across. We in the US have pretty much the same overall electrical utility system. We use the same high power lines and most everything rural and in suburbia is either much simpler above ground power lines or lines buried underground about three or four feet under (depending on where the frost line is). New development is almost all underground while most everything else is above ground. I'm sure you guys are pretty much the same. Except, of course, for the end-user plugs and we just use 110 volts vs. your 240. What I'm trying to get across would only affect big cities. Cities big enough to have a subway system. One of the big problems people came across in NYC was that many of the subways were flooded (sometimes three or four stories down). And run alongside those subways were the utilities (electrical included). Now, for the most part, this makes complete sense to run them close to each other but, because of Sandy, they all of a sudden found that: 1. the subways were flooded. 2. because the electrical utilities were run right next to the subways, they were also flooded. 3. Electrically powered pumps designed to pump out the subways won't work if there is no power. 4. Realization! We need to move the electrical lines so this doesn't happen again. Sorry to sound a bit pedantic but I don't know any other way to explain the problem. In NYC (as well as London and who knows where else) this is probably going to have to be addressed quickly. And it could cost a fortune to move the electrical lines in the city.

November 9th, 2012, 09:10 PM	#1063
9876543210 Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 4,044 Thanks: 24,638 Thanked 34,438 Times in 4,008 Posts	Scoundrel, OK, 10-4. I think we're finally on the same page. It sounds like you guys have taken this situation into account. Unlike NYC. Haven't heard anything in the last day or two buy I think they're still draining some of those subways and, until they're all dry, the power can't be restored to some parts of town.

November 10th, 2012, 05:11 PM	#1066
haroldeye Moderator Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Halfwitistan Posts: 5,716 Thanks: 113,591 Thanked 59,980 Times in 5,708 Posts	Having seen potential flood maps of London on a TV prog I would suggest that no power plants or computer banks should be below the first story.

November 11th, 2012, 10:49 PM	#1069
bombermouse Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: In the fog Posts: 3,868 Thanks: 105,779 Thanked 33,560 Times in 3,839 Posts	Personally, I hope the legislature gets organized at least to the point that they can enact simple budgetary funding bills without a "crisis" every few months. I don't expect that, I expect continued intransigence, incompetence and stupidity.