Current Politics in the United Kingdom

[seany65]

Is it not possible to have a deal with the EU without the 'four freedoms'?

[otokonomidori]

Originally Posted by recluce

compared to the stability of the union of the remaining 27 member nations.
.

Those pesky Italians are certainly rocking the boat just now and what about that damned Vizegrad Group ?

[recluce]

Originally Posted by seany65

Is it not possible to have a deal with the EU without the 'four freedoms'?

Depends on the deal you want. Possibly something like CETA could be arranged, in time? But is that what the UK wants? So far I have only heard that they want three out of four - which I bet will never happen.

[recluce]

Originally Posted by otokonomidori

Those pesky Italians are certainly rocking the boat just now and what about that damned Vizegrad Group ?

So much more reason for the EU to avoid anything that would add further instability.

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by recluce

I really don't understand why anybody on the Pro-Brexit side could ever have expected to retain some but not all of the fundamental four freedoms that are at the heart of the European idea and the European treaties:

• Free Movement of Goods
• Free Movement of Services
• Free Movement of Capital
• Free Movement of People (choice of residence and work place)

The EU will not budge from "all or nothing" on the four freedoms and if restricting the free movement of people is so fundamental to the UK, it must accept that it has to live without the other three freedoms as well.

There is no automatic link between these things. It is a political conceit to link them, no doubt part of the United Europe federalist ambition. The free movement of people works inside a nation but between nations it needs to be closely controlled. Neighbouring and friendly countries can have a common travel area but a common travel area across the whole of Europe is not sensible and asks for the sort of trouble we have already seen. Free movement of labour undermines local labour markets and damages the standard of life for working people in popular countries where others want to come to live and work.

No. I do not consent. If that means no deal, then that is what it means.

See you around, EU.

[haroldeye]

Originally Posted by recluce

Ah, fake news. German net contribution is in excess of 16 billion euros per year, so Germany is a significantly large contributor than the UK.

Not fake news at all. The Euro is at one level and keeps prices of German goods affordable. If Germany still had the Dm, it would be worth substantially more than the Euro and would restrict the sales of German goods and services. It's not cash that they get from the budget it's the advantage that it gives to their economy. This advantage comes at a cost to the weaker economies in the Euro zone like Portugal and Spain.

[bjcb0]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

May should have gone when she so spectacularly mishandled the 2017 general election; but the Tories have no one lined up to replace her. They certainly won't be eager to go back to the polls on the strength of the Chequers Plan.

It's looking awfully like a No Deal Brexit to me. It sounds a lot like Mr Barnier is determined to enforce the free movement of people; but if the free movement of people was so popular then the referendum would have been a cakewalk for the Remain side, and clearly that wasn't the case.

The Tories don't need to hold another election if May falls. Technically they can continue until the next election under the Fixed Term Parliaments Act, and I think this is likely given current fears of what an election would bring.

I agree that Barnier does not want to relax his position at all, but I don't think No Deal is most likely. I suspect that the UK government will accept an off-the-shelf deal at the last moment (e.g Norway + Customs Union), simply because of the political and economic problems of No Deal. After all, they can always argue that (i) we have actually left the EU, and (ii) if we don't like the off-the-shelf deal we can then argue for modifications without the time constraints of Article 50. Now I'm a Remainer, so this would be fine for me, but I think lots of Brexit-light voters would accept it too.

[recluce]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

There is no automatic link between these things.

There is, it is called the European Treaties. You can either accept that or get out of the EU.

It is a political conceit to link them, no doubt part of the United Europe federalist ambition. The free movement of people works inside a nation but between nations it needs to be closely controlled. Neighbouring and friendly countries can have a common travel area but a common travel area across the whole of Europe is not sensible and asks for the sort of trouble we have already seen.

Says you and the Pro-Brexit Spinmeisters. Thanks to Cambridge Analytica and the UK media, a very thin majority of UK citizenship seems to believe the same.

Free movement of labour undermines local labour markets and damages the standard of life for working people in popular countries where others want to come to live and work.

UK Demographics pretty strongly indicate that the UK will not be able to manage without foreign labour. And if you want to look at what keeps many people in the UK in misery, take a good look back at Mrs. Thatcher and the policies she established. By the way, the net migration rate of the UK puts it in 13th place in Europe, see here: http://factsmaps.com/net-migration-rate-europe-2017/

No. I do not consent. If that means no deal, then that is what it means.

See you around, EU.

Then you are likely getting what you want. Let's see how that No Deal Brexit will work out for you.

[recluce]

Originally Posted by haroldeye

Not fake news at all. The Euro is at one level and keeps prices of German goods affordable. If Germany still had the Dm, it would be worth substantially more than the Euro and would restrict the sales of German goods and services. It's not cash that they get from the budget it's the advantage that it gives to their economy. This advantage comes at a cost to the weaker economies in the Euro zone like Portugal and Spain.

Which is not what was initially discussed (contribution to EU budget), so you are really off topic here. By the way: all member nations of the EU profit from other aspects of membership than direct contributions and subsidies.

The Euro in its current form is not without issues, no question. Some countries should never have been allowed to join - but that is a completely different discussion.

[Nobody1]

Originally Posted by palo5

I don't think Greece is a good example. The last poll I read said that 75% were in favor of the EU

No matter how you look at it, Greece's problem was that its politicians spent too much money, and couldn't pay it back because they're very inefficient at collecting taxes.

Greece's problem was that they bought German tanks and submarines on credit. Which was one of the many conditions for further loan commitments from Berlin.