Holocaust:True Or False ?

[gordian_knot]

Originally Posted by winetippler

I have deleted my previous contributions to this discussion.

I take issue with individuals whom have never met me, know me, but choose to make assumptions about me from a few lines of text.

For the record I have visited the Holocaust Musuem in Jerusalem and met and chatted to Holocaust survivors something which I wonder if those whom choose to pass comment on my beliefs have done.

Sorry VEFers and moderators, I'll probably get banned for posting this or have it removed, but I feel strongly about this and felt I had to publicly make a statement despite trying to resolve this in an amicable manner privately.

I should state here that it was my post that annoyed winetippler.

What I was trying to say was that he might not have been totally convinced of the holocaust before visiting that museum (or he may, it was just an illustration). But there are people - not just anti-semitic deniers - who may not be convinced or who haven't given it a thought and the best way of convincing them is to talk about these things openly.

I'm sorry that winetippler chose to see my post as a personal attack on him, which it certainly wasn't, and hope he rejoins this discussion at some point.

[martynz]

Facebook’s policies on Holocaust denial will come under fresh scrutiny following the leak of documents that show moderators are being told not to remove this content in most of the countries where it is illegal.

The files explain that moderators should take down Holocaust denial material in only four of the 14 countries where it is outlawed, if reported.

One document says the company “does not welcome local law that stands as an obstacle to an open and connected world” and will only consider blocking or hiding Holocaust denial messages and photographs if “we face the risk of getting blocked in a country or a legal risk”.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/201...ars-being-sued

[Roubignol]

I believe that's true.

Which kind of crazy Jews actors would have been ready to almost starve to death to be filmed by the American troops? No No No.... impossible.
In France the former Minister of Health, Simone Weil, was deported to Auschwitz when she was 16 years old. She lost her father, her mother and her brother there.
She also had an infamous tatoo.

But IMO, it was not the first Holocaust perpetraded by some humans against other humans.

Here are other ones:

1) Belgians (under King Leopold II) probably perpetraded one of the first, even the first Holocaust in Congo (1885 to 1908).
2) Under the Second Reich, Germany already made two "small" Holocausts in Namibia between 1904 to 1908, where they exterminated two populations: the Nama and the Herero.

Now if we (as I am) think as antispecist, there were several other forms of genocide:
like the bisons in the USA (between 70 to more than 100 millions killed) in about 30~40 years.
Or the passenger pigeon who was totally exterminated.
Etc...

[howerd]

Seriously? Do we believe the holocaust happened? Come on! I even know a Jewish guy in his 90s who got evacuated to Britain on the Kindertransport. His whole f***kin' family got wiped out by the Nazis but hey that's just a part of a massive global conspiracy to fool us all yeah? Yeah riiiiiiiiight!

[howerd]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5A-cSFHDQo

[slaphead12]

Cannot effing believe this is a question in this day and age..
Don’t care if I get banned, don’t care if I upset anyone but...

If you don’t believe the holocaust happened you are either,
1.) Ill informed
or
2.) Stupid.
or
3.) A neo nazi.
or
All three


Good night.

[bowlinggreen]

Originally Posted by xyzde69

Now if we (as I am) think as antispecist, there were several other forms of genocide:
like the bisons in the USA (between 70 to more than 100 millions killed) in about 30~40 years.
Or the passenger pigeon who was totally exterminated.
Etc...

Well, xyz, the buffalo were wiped out so that A) the Indians could be brought under control, and B) so that crops could be planted on all of that nice land were the buffalo roam (or roamed). Kind of hard to be a wheat farmer if at any moment a half a million buffalo might come grazing though your crop fields and eat everything down to stubble. if this land had not been cleared and settled, America would not have become the powerhouse it did - which means there would have been no USA to come and save you from the Nazis, in which case you would not be on this forum bemoaning the demise of the Great Plains buffalo herds.

Take heart, the buffalo is not gone, there are some healthy herds around these days, including a good sized one I have seen out in the South Dakota Badlands. Ornery critters too.

Passenger pigeons - pity they are all gone, but they were a blight on crops too, out east. There were so many at one point their flocks would literally darken the sky. Hordes of squirrels were a bane for early settlers too, devouring their corn crops. The passenger pigeon is gone, but the squirrels live on. I expect the squirrels will still be here long after we have departed the scene.

Insofar as the holocaust goes, I don't see how you could reasonably claim that it didn't happen. There is a ton of evidence and a conspiracy large enough to invent a "holocaust hoax" simply would not be sustainable over any length of time. Scholars can still debate over exactly how many Jews were murdered but whether it was four million Jews, or five million Jews, or six million Jews is kind of beside the point. Even if you pick a lower number than any of the above it is still utterly reprehensible.

Claiming that there was no holocaust is akin to claiming that the World Trade Center was actually knocked down by explosives planted by the government on 9/11. It's ridiculous. People who deny that all those Jews were killed either have mental problems or a serious white supremacist axe to grind.

[Hikarufan]

I knew a German woman and she was a child during these times and they came to Australia after the war. I saw her verbally take down a wannabe neo Nazi one day. She told him flat out to his face in front of about a dozen people that she was not scared of him and he was nothing, absolutely nothing. She then said real Nazi's, that's a different story. She was properly scared of them as you didn't know what they would do. Later on she said that there was not much you could do even though you knew evil was happening. It seems that self preservation kicks in and you do you best to not be a part of it.

I think anyone who denies this happen has their head in the sand. War and beliefs can bring out the worst in us.

[cicciobuki]

Originally Posted by slaphead12

Cannot effing believe this is a question in this day and age..
Don’t care if I get banned, don’t care if I upset anyone but...

If you don’t believe the holocaust happened you are either,
1.) Ill informed
or
2.) Stupid.
or
3.) A neo nazi.
or
All three


Good night.

I agree completely.

I cringe every time i see this thread title pop up in the New Posts.
Wasn't too happy with the original title (i think it was something like "Holocaust, do you believe it or not?") but the current one is even worse.

Maybe it's a sign of these times where facts and evidence are getting ignored and where too many people chose to believe what they find convenient...

[cicciobuki]

can't edit for the moment so,

edit: maybe simply "holocaust discussion" would make a better title.